# The strange concept of eternal hell suffering. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528 "2013-09-23T17:54:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/581 "2013-09-27T03:55:35Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Hey, np, I first heard about it recently on the Dope (damn, I gotta stop opening the religion type threads) where someone posted [a link to a sort of satire site](http://objectiveministries.org/pastorscorner/) where they “espouse” antitriclavianism, which, you have to admit, really rolls off the tongue. True. But, [“antidisestablishmentarianism”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antidisestablishmentarianism) is a **longer** word. (But, then again, as I’ve sometimes been told in somewhat nervous and reassuring tones, length does not count. All that much. :o) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/582 "2013-09-27T03:57:12Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Small sacrifice indeed. I have it on good authority that chicks DIG scars. Yeh, but does Jesus dig chicks? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/583 "2013-09-27T03:59:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Nobody cursed _at_ you. The point I am hoping you will understand is that you can pretty much say what you want about someone’s argument, but making personal comments about a poster - like saying they’re “conditioned” or taunting them because you think they’re uncomfortable - isn’t appropriate for this forum. It’s fine in the Pit, but not here. I understand. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/584 "2013-09-27T04:14:45Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > In my view, there is no such thing as an " Abrahamic God", there is only God. **Pure-D bullshit.** The Supreme Being is an abstract philosophical concept, one you can find in the writings of such paleopagans as Plato and Aristotle (fools that they were); and one which has **nothing whatsoever to do** with the entirely culture-bound Lord God of Israel, bloody barbarous Bronze-Age desert-savage that He is, nor with any of His subsequent and even more bloody and barbarous and savage manifestations and expressions in Christianity and in Islam. Any and all arguments in [natural theology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_theology) go strictly and only to the former, **not** to the latter. E.g., you can’t use the [Ontological Argument](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_argument) nor the [Cosmological Argument](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument) nor the [Teleological Argument](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_argument) to prove that Jesus died for our sins, nor that Mohammed is God’s prophet, nor that meat should not be eaten on Fridays nor pork at any time, nor that you can pray to God with any hope of attention or response. Indeed, Aristotle’s God (and Spinoza’s) is a being so complete-in-Himself that He is not omniscient but rather nescient – He perceives nothing outside Himself at all, nor need nor should, and He does not hear your prayers, nor need nor should. Really, philosophy and religion have very little to say to each other. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/585 "2013-09-27T05:27:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > . . . you can find in the writings of such paleopagans as Plato and Aristotle (fools that they were) . . . “Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates? Idiots.” (Actually, I agree… I had a hell of a time in Philosophy 101, trying to get through The Republic. Hideous book. “Oh, let’s base our society of philosophic truths…and fables we make up to be told to hoi polloi to fool them into following us philosopher kings…” What a goddamned creepy patronizing and exploitive system! Ick!) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/586 "2013-09-27T05:51:11Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > In my view, there is no such thing as an " Abrahamic God", there is only God. God is the standard, not you, not me, not religion, not anything human; he alone sets the rules of this game of life… That’s nice…but it is not, and cannot, be the only view to be considered. Those you converse with are neither empty cups to be filled with your knowledge nor are they sponges there for the purpose of soaking up your views and your views only-they are people of various cultures, ages and life experiences, no better or worse than you, and to assume that they will _of course_ take you at your word and accept what you say without question even if if contradicts what they already have grown to believe is nothing but arrogance born of ignorance. In life, and especially in this forum, you will be questioned if you make statements of fact that contradict common knowledge-viewing such questions as insults will not get you far. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/587 "2013-09-27T05:58:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yeh, but does Jesus dig chicks? [hmmm …](http://www.alternet.org/story/155118/was_jesus_gay_probably) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/588 "2013-09-27T06:12:59Z")
From page 1! > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The concept of reincarnation for spiritual growth is also evil, but not as evil as hell. The idea of an endless number of lives full of ignorance, pain, sickness, vulnerability and suffering to ‘learn lessons’ or ‘grow’ is astoundingly evil. > > Thats the problem with religion. The world has evil in it and it is impossible to rectify a good creator with an evil world unless you are willingly blind. Our ability to enjoy life or find it painful is just a tool evolution created to control our behavior to enhance our survival odds. Religion attempts to convince us subjective consciousness is the core of existence, rather than a largely irrelevant peripheral aspect created late in evolution. According to Buddhism, “a subjective consciousness at the core of existence” neither rewards or punishes us. If gods exist, they cannot help us, according to this view. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > **Pure-D bullshit.** The Supreme Being is an abstract philosophical concept, one you can find in the writings of such paleopagans as Plato and Aristotle (fools that they were); and one which has **nothing whatsoever to do** with the entirely culture-bound Lord God of Israel, bloody barbarous Bronze-Age desert-savage that He is, nor with any of His subsequent and even more bloody and barbarous and savage manifestations and expressions in Christianity and in Islam. It was my understanding that St. Paul attempted to meld Judaic and Greek influences, such that you exaggerate. Or are you saying he had no substantive Greek influences? (Incidentally, that’s all I got: I can’t substantiate those claims. And yeah, even if you concede an argument from First Cause, I can’t see how, say, transubstantiation follows.) ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/589 "2013-09-27T09:11:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s nice…but it is not, and cannot, be the only view to be considered. Those you converse with are neither empty cups to be filled with your knowledge nor are they sponges there for the purpose of soaking up your views and your views only-they are people of various cultures, ages and life experiences, no better or worse than you, and to assume that they will _of course_ take you at your word and accept what you say without question even if if contradicts what they already have grown to believe is nothing but arrogance born of ignorance. In life, and especially in this forum, you will be questioned if you make statements of fact that contradict common knowledge-viewing such questions as insults will not get you far. Man can only go as far as he has gone, and then no further; and he only got that far because of God. People in this form may question me all they like, be as diverse as they are and be filled with as much knowledge as they can possess, I have never claimed to be better or worse than anyone here, but I have made known what I believe and I stand absolutely by it; and am not ashamed of it. I , for one, will never give the power of God and the real origin of our lives, over to some manipulated scientific theory, nor argue for humans being continuous with the idiot hierarchy of speechless apes. I don’t mind being questioned , I am against the use of cursing in the questioning, and won’t do that myself, I consider that a weakening of the human language, but I see its allowed here. When statements concerning God are considered to be a contradiction of common knowledge, then how far has that knowledge really advanced, when they want to leave the truth of what is, behind; and go about to establish their own guidelines as the truth. That is exactly how the strange doctrine of eternal hell doctrine got here; men decided to go off and think for themselves, which is fine for a while, but history shows us just what that eventually leads to; man will make himself god; make his own rules, and think that he makes his own way. I know I stick out here like a sore thumb, I have walked that path and crowd before; no matter, I hold no interest in being with the majority; I walk alone and ever alone. But I agree with Jeremiah 10:23, " I know, O Lord, that a man’s way is not in himself; nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps." But its our nature, from the time we were babies, to walk on our own. To dictate terms , and abuse any and everything we like, including the human language. But I have decided, no matter what life has to offer in its variety, to never trade it in for the God of our birth. And I will stand for that God, until I can stand no more. I think that much about him, and don;'t even know him. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/590 "2013-09-27T09:48:42Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I don’t mind being questioned , I am against the use of cursing in the questioning, and won’t do that myself, I consider that a weakening of the human language, but I see its allowed here. Good, now if everyone wouldn’t be so concerned with ‘winning’ a debate, we could actually have some nice discussions. > [@](#): > > When statements concerning God are considered to be a contradiction of common knowledge, then how far has that knowledge really advanced, when they want to leave the truth of what is, behind; and go about to establish their own guidelines as the truth. And how did you get by that _‘truth that is’_ ? From an early-iron age mythbook from some obscure little region in the east? While obvious facts are right in front of you? Knowledge has advanced quite a bit from the knowledge they had some 2500 years ago. > [@](#): > > That is exactly how the strange doctrine of eternal hell doctrine got here; **men decided to go off and think for themselves** , which is fine for a while, but history shows us just what that eventually leads to; man will make himself god; make his own rules, and think that he makes his own way. I know I stick out here like a sore thumb… Hang on, didn’t you say that you didn’t follow any religion but started thinking for yourself?? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/591 "2013-09-27T12:06:48Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Its a perfect answer. Atheist have their way of playing religious politics, in their effort to shut down belief in God. They NEED to use myths, something they themselves do not believe in, in order to assist them in getting believers in God not to believe. > > Conversely, believers in God do not NEED myths to prove their belief as valid. A strange dicotomy, just as strange as the belief in the myth of eternal hell torture. I think Atheists want facts, any thing can be believed, People used to believe the world was flat, that has been proven false. So there is a wide divide between fact and belief. Belief requires proof. fact is already been proven! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/592 "2013-09-27T12:17:23Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > There is only one God. All others are creations of men. Do you realize you are arguing for the other side, you are a human, so that puts you and your beliefs in the same category. Also you have no proof for there being any God, even the one you believe is existing… strangely, you use the Christian Bible to make your point, but say you are not Christian, that makes no sense to me. If you believe in the writers and translators of the Bible, then you are saying the Christian God is the one you believe in, just not thinking you are following Christian beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/593 "2013-09-27T12:25:46Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I disagree, Proteins are objective proof of God, and they do not prove Unicorns exist. Proteins never form except in already living cells; please, explain to me then how the first protein got here if God did not create it? Even scientist cannot make DNA in a lab. These proteins are too unique to have formed or " Folded themselves." Proteins must fold perfectly. And science just is not that perfect, nor is natural selection. Explain to me what taught Proteins to turn themselves on and off , if God did not? > > If a first living cell would have formed without a creator, which is impossible, the cell would still have had to replace each of its proteins as soon as it wore out. If the cell did not already contain the information to correctly turn on and off the production of the replacement proteins, the cell would have died as soon as the first protein wore out. Explain that to me. This is objective evidence of a creating designing God who knows how to turn them on and off. > Hello! If your God exists and is a being, he would need a place to exist, before he could exist, so who created the place for him or it? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/594 "2013-09-27T12:26:25Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Do you realize you are arguing for the other side, you are a human, so that puts you and your beliefs in the same category. Also you have no proof for there being any God, even the one you believe is existing… strangely, you use the Christian Bible to make your point, but say you are not Christian, that makes no sense to me. > > If you believe in the writers and translators of the Bible, then you are saying the Christian God is the one you believe in, just not thinking you are following Christian beliefs. There is no such thing as a " Christian bible", that is popular deception, the bible is not owned by Christians and no group on earth holds any legal rights to it. Prove to me that it is " A Christian bible"; I am announcing to you that it is " A bible", and no group of people can lay ownership to it. Produce any legal papers that Christians have on it; produce to me any legal docuements that Christians have on the bible to support your claim that it belongs exclusively to them; I challange you to produce any evidence to back up you giving them exclusive ownership of it. And there is absolutely no such thing as " The Christian God", your using the same mentality and now your giving Christians ownership of God himself; God has NEVER endorsed Christianity, nor has Jesus; now prove to be that they own God. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/595 "2013-09-27T12:31:49Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > If your God exists and is a being, he would need a place to exist, before he could exist, so who created the place for him or it? He did. He created his place to exist in. And before he created that place to exist in, he existed outside of " Places to exist in", I think in a totally different dimension, which the bible calls, The Spirit world." He is in that world now, and I know little about it. So God is a dimensional being who creates his own homes. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/596 "2013-09-27T12:41:43Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > There is no such thing as a " Christian bible", that is popular deception, the bible is not owned by Christians and no group on earth holds any legal rights to it. Prove to me that it is " A Christian bible"; I am announcing to you that it is " A bible", and no group of people can lay ownership to it. Produce any legal papers that Christians have on it; produce to me any legal docuements that Christians have on the bible to support your claim that it belongs exclusively to them; I challange you to produce any evidence to back up you giving them exclusive ownership of it. And there is absolutely no such thing as " The Christian God", your using the same mentality and now your giving Christians ownership of God himself; God has NEVER endorsed Christianity, nor has Jesus; now prove to be that they own God. FIrstly - the bible that you are reffeing to (old and new testemants) was put together by the early catholic church - and later ‘reformed’ (removed 7 books) by the ‘Protestant’ reformation - still a ‘Christian’ work. So, while you might be trying to say that the ‘Bible’ is for ‘everyone’ - what you are using is still the ‘Christian’ bible - as opposed to the tora, the ‘tao te ching’. the Koran, etc. [QUOTE=JESUS @ Mathew 24:18] Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” [/QUOTE] So - ‘Christian’ – means “Christ Like” - Chistianity is "s a monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ as presented in the New Testament. " “Most Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God, fully divine and fully human, and the savior of humanity prophesied in the Old Testament.” So, your own bible refutes your ‘point’ - other than your apparent anger at the ‘religion’ of Christianity - many of your own posts contradict what you are saying. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/597 "2013-09-27T12:43:02Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > There is no such thing as a " Christian bible", that is popular deception, the bible is not owned by Christians and no group on earth holds any legal rights to it. Prove to me that it is " A Christian bible"; I am announcing to you that it is " A bible", and no group of people can lay ownership to it. Produce any legal papers that Christians have on it; produce to me any legal docuements that Christians have on the bible to support your claim that it belongs exclusively to them; I challange you to produce any evidence to back up you giving them exclusive ownership of it. And there is absolutely no such thing as " The Christian God", your using the same mentality and now your giving Christians ownership of God himself; God has NEVER endorsed Christianity, nor has Jesus; now prove to be that they own God. There is proof that Humans wrote the Bible and made the claim that it is the word of God. The Bible both old and new Testaments were written by many humans and if you believe the words they wrote, your belief is in those humans or the people who kept their word alive! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/598 "2013-09-27T12:45:33Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > He did. He created his place to exist in. And before he created that place to exist in, he existed outside of " Places to exist in", I think in a totally different dimension, which the bible calls, The Spirit world." He is in that world now, and I know little about it. So God is a dimensional being who creates his own homes. I a sorry, but you make no sense to me at all, Of course you have the right to your thoughts but they are just that, your thoughts! As a post script what isn’t in existence doesn’t exist. That would mean your God is nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/599 "2013-09-27T12:46:14Z")
The concept of eternal hell suffering is troublesome and really a slur on God’s reputation. Its really an attempt by satan to plant a sinister doctrine of demons into a church and to get them to spread it as if it is the truth; and I think he has accomplished this attempt. Which reveals his awesome powers of deception. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/600 "2013-09-27T12:50:02Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > There is proof that Humans wrote the Bible and made the claim that it is the word of God. The Bible both old and new Testaments were written by many humans and if you believe the words they wrote, your belief is in those humans or the people who kept their word alive! I think its obvious that humans wrote the bible , and I would totally disagree with anyone who taught differently. And its a fact that 85% of the writers of the bible were not " Christians", and I could challange that the New Testament writers were not " Christians", with the exception of Paul, who MAY have accepted the " Roman created term." [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528.md?page=31)