# The strange concept of eternal hell suffering. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528 "2013-09-23T17:54:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/701 "2013-09-28T12:07:15Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > It correctly accounted for these events in history; > > The campaign of Israel by Pharaoh Shishak, recorded in 1 Kings 14:25-26, discovered recorded perfectly as the bible described on the walls of the Temple of Amun in Thebes, Egypt. Accurate. > > The revolt of Moab against Israel , recorded in 2 Kings 1:1, 3:4-27, discovered by archaeologist perfectly recorded the same in the " Mesha Inscription." Accurate! > > The fall of Samaria , recorded in 2 Kings 17:3-6, 24, 18:9-11, to Sargon II, King of Assyria, found perfectly recorded on his palace walls. Stunningly accurate! > > The campaign of the Assyrian King Sennacherib against Judah, recorded in 2 Kings 18:13-16, archaeologist discovered that recorded as it was in the bible on the " Taylor Prism." Accurate! > > The siege of Lachish by Sennacherib, recorded in 2 Kings 18:14,17, the bible got that one right on target, as found by archaeologist recorded on " The Lachish Reliefs." Accurate! > > The fall of Nineveh as predicted by the prophets Nahum and Zephaniah, 2:13, as found recorded on the " Tablet of Nabopolasar", stunningly accurate prophecy. > > The fall of Jerusalem to Nebuchadnezzar , King of Babylon; the bible records that in 2 Kings 24:10-14, we found it exactly recorded accurately in the unearthed Babylonian Chronicles! What do those events have to prove it was from God or that God exists? They were all humans, and wrote their beliefs just as you do, and it proves nothing about a creator god. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/702 "2013-09-28T12:09:54Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Like I said up thread before; some ask for evidence, cry for proof, claim there is none, when its provided, they spit on it and claim its not proof. > > Go figure. You do realize what you call proof is not proof, just that you prove you believe it is proof! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/703 "2013-09-28T12:21:08Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Case? I am not presenting a case, I am listing proven history. I often wonder at times why its ignored; but that aside, because its a mystery to me why one can list things in history and they be ignored or maybe just not believed, all of what I listed has already been substantiated, such as; > > Ezk. 29:15, Egypt would never again rule over other nations, this was written between 593-571 BC > > Fulfilled in 1967 , during my life time! Ohhh, stunning biblical prophecy. You do know that Jesus is quoted as saying the world would end in that generation? If it had happened, there would be no world now. We cannot state in truth that the writings of any Prophets were a fact, or that much is after the fact, the people who wrote the Bible seems to be using those things to keep a person in fear or guilt, which many religions still do. And I cannot find anything of what you call evidence as such, just your belief that it is so! ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/704 "2013-09-28T12:25:41Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > What do those events have to prove it was from God or that God exists? They were all humans, and wrote their beliefs just as you do, and it proves nothing about a creator god. It proves nothing to you, it proves plenty to me; you talk as if you are in the majority in your view, when truth be told, you are in the minority. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/705 "2013-09-28T12:43:19Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > It proves nothing to you, it proves plenty to me; you talk as if you are in the majority in your view, when truth be told, you are in the minority. You surely have the right to your beliefs, just as years ago people believed the world was flat. But you prove nothing(as I stated before) just that you have your own religion and have the right to follow your beliefs as long as they bring no harm to others. You seem, at least to me, that you are the only one with the truth, but truth can be proven, and you do not prove anything. Because you believe it is true doesn’t make it so, anymore than people used to believe there was life on Mars. I feel if your beliefs make you a better person, that is your right but you have given no proof of any of your statements. Just your way of looking at things. What majority are you referring to? You admit you walk alone…what does that say about you? You are the Majority of one!!! ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/706 "2013-09-28T13:26:03Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > You surely have the right to your beliefs, just as years ago people believed the world was flat. But you prove nothing(as I stated before) just that you have your own religion and have the right to follow your beliefs as long as they bring no harm to others. You seem, at least to me, that you are the only one with the truth, but truth can be proven, and you do not prove anything. Because you believe it is true doesn’t make it so, anymore than people used to believe there was life on Mars. I feel if your beliefs make you a better person, that is your right but you have given no proof of any of your statements. Just your way of looking at things. > > What majority are you referring to? You admit you walk alone…what does that say about you? You are the Majority of one!!! I have proved it to myself, why then should I worry about what you seem to think I cannot prove? And I don’t have a religion, you keep saying I have a religion; what is my religion? Since your giving me religion, what is the religion? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/707 "2013-09-28T13:56:52Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Yes I deny it, seriously deny it; you don’t know what your talking about. It was God and Jewish Rabbis who put the bible together. They assembled it, Christians just later got involved and took the credit. > > [How and when was the canon of the Bible put together? | GotQuestions.org](http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html) Do you even read the information at teh links you post? [QUOTE=[How and when was the canon of the Bible put together? | GotQuestions.org](http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html)] Determining the canon was a process conducted first by Jewish rabbis and scholars and later by early **Christians**. \ For the New Testament, the process of the recognition and collection began in the first centuries of the \*\*Christian \*\*church. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/708 "2013-09-28T14:07:23Z")
It really amazes me that people can live on a planet specifically designed for humans to live on, with a whole planet designed to survive , with a Sun to keep us warm- which if our planet was any closer to it, we would burn up, any further away we would be frozen; A planet rotating on its axis, which will automatically burn up anything entering its atmosphere;it just becomes insulting when people try to teach in schools that all that just " Happened to bring about itself." I tell you, the stuff is getting deep. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/709 "2013-09-28T14:09:50Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > It really amazes me that people can live on a planet specifically designed for humans to live on, with a whole planet designed to survive , with a Sun to keep us warm- which if our planet was any closer to it, we would burn up, any further away we would be frozen; A planet rotating on its axis, which will automatically burn up anything entering its atmosphere;it just becomes insulting when people try to teach in schools that all that just " Happened to bring about itself." > > I tell you, the stuff is getting deep. Maybe you should stop shoveling it? ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/710 "2013-09-28T14:18:42Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > It really amazes me that people can live on a planet **specifically designed for humans to live on** , with a whole planet designed to survive , with a Sun to keep us warm- which if our planet was any closer to it, we would burn up, any further away we would be frozen; A planet rotating on its axis, which will automatically burn up anything entering its atmosphere;it just becomes insulting when people try to teach in schools that all that just " Happened to bring about itself." > > I tell you, the stuff is getting deep. Emphasis mine. So, tell me. Do you enjoy the houses that are built into the ground out of solid rock that we live in? Do you enjoy the cows that run up to you with sizzling meats ready to be eaten right there? Or…wait. We have to build ourselves a shelter or die from exposure in many areas. We have to cook meat because raw meat can give us horrible diseases that most carnivores don’t have our level of susceptibility to. Since other animals have to do similar things to survive (polar bears build a “den” or what could be considered a house in the snow for the winter, as an example) is the earth specifically designed for them, too? This doesn’t seem to be “designed” for us. it seems like we, as a species, have built atop what was provided. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/711 "2013-09-28T15:07:34Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > Emphasis mine. > > So, tell me. Do you enjoy the houses that are built into the ground out of solid rock that we live in? Do you enjoy the cows that run up to you with sizzling meats ready to be eaten right there? > > Or…wait. We have to build ourselves a shelter or die from exposure in many areas. We have to cook meat because raw meat can give us horrible diseases that most carnivores don’t have our level of susceptibility to. > > Since other animals have to do similar things to survive (polar bears build a “den” or what could be considered a house in the snow for the winter, as an example) is the earth specifically designed for them, too? > > This doesn’t seem to be “designed” for us. it seems like we, as a species, have built atop what was provided. And it was God who provided it, it did not provide itself, and that is what Theist are saying. You can’t rob credentials of creation. It would make absolutely no sense whatever if someone of reason looked at this earth right now, all the houses and buildings, all the cities and monuments , and try and claim all that built itself and take the credit away from man. Just because they did not believe in man; conversely, its no different than looking at all the great things that God has built, but just because you don’t believe in him, you claim that the universe built itself. That " It grew out from nothing." Get Real! ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/712 "2013-09-28T15:15:49Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > And it was God who provided it, it did not provide itself, and that is what Theist are saying. You can’t rob credentials of creation. It would make absolutely no sense whatever if someone of reason looked at this earth right now, all the houses and buildings, all the cities and monuments , and try and claim all that built itself and take the credit away from man. Just because they did not believe in man; conversely, its no different than looking at all the great things that God has built, but just because you don’t believe in him, you claim that the universe built itself. That " It grew out from nothing." > > Get Real! I think, therefore I am (…real). I believe in God. However, I don’t credit everything I see to Him. The natural world is a beauteous wonder. But the plants grew that way. He isn’t a cosmic bonzai gardener, that I can tell, and doesn’t seem to be personally pruning each and every bush to look a certain way (which is different for every single bush). ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/713 "2013-09-28T15:25:46Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > I think, therefore I am (…real). > > I believe in God. However, I don’t credit everything I see to Him. The natural world is a beauteous wonder. But the plants grew that way. He isn’t a cosmic bonzai gardener, that I can tell, and doesn’t seem to be personally pruning each and every bush to look a certain way (which is different for every single bush). Ahhh, finally a light of reason , a breath of fresh air flows through. I can agree with some of that. In my view, God is a bonzi gardener. But I like, I think, therefore I am. I also like Shakespear’s King Lear;" Nothing can come from nothing." " Nothing will come of nothing." > **[Creatio ex materia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_comes_from_nothing)** > > Creatio ex materia is the notion that the universe was formed out of eternal, pre-existing matter. This is in contrast to the notion of creatio ex nihilo, where the universe is created out of nothing. The idea of creatio ex materia is found in ancient near eastern cosmology, early Greek cosmology such as is in the works of Homer and Hesiod, and across the board in ancient Greek philosophy. It was also held by a few early Christians, although creatio ex nihilo was the dominant concept among Gre... ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/714 "2013-09-28T15:49:38Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Ahhh, finally a light of reason , a breath of fresh air flows through. I can agree with some of that. In my view, God is a bonzi gardener. > > But I like, I think, therefore I am. > > I also like Shakespear’s King Lear;" Nothing can come from nothing." " Nothing will come of nothing." > > [Creatio ex materia - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_comes_from_nothing) Shakespeare was not a scientist - Did you read the ‘Modern Physics’ part of your link? From a scientific/physicist standpoint - ‘nothing’ does not exist - hows that for a conundrum to think about? \ [QUOTE=[Much Ado about Nothing | Scientific American](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=much-ado-about-nothing)] Nothing is unstable. In his new book, A Universe from Nothing, cosmologist Lawrence M. Krauss attempts to link quantum physics to Einstein’s general theory of relativity to explain the origin of a universe from nothing: \*\*“In quantum gravity, universes can, and indeed always will, spontaneously appear from nothing. \*\*Such universes need not be empty, but can have matter and radiation in them, as long as the total energy, including the negative energy associated with gravity [balancing the positive energy of matter], is zero.” Furthermore, “for the closed universes that might be created through such mechanisms to last for longer than infinitesimal times, something like inflation is necessary.” Observations show that the universe is in fact flat (there is just enough matter to slow its expansion but not to halt it), has zero total energy and underwent rapid inflation, or expansion, soon after the big bang, as described by inflationary cosmology. Krauss concludes: “Quantum gravity not only appears to allow universes to be created from nothing—meaning … absence of space and time—it may require them. ‘Nothing’—in this case no space, no time, no anything!—is unstable.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/715 "2013-09-28T15:55:25Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Ahhh, finally a light of reason , a breath of fresh air flows through. I can agree with some of that. In my view, God is a bonzi gardener. > > But I like, I think, therefore I am. > > I also like Shakespear’s King Lear;" Nothing can come from nothing." " Nothing will come of nothing." > > [Creatio ex materia - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_comes_from_nothing) It terrifies me that you consider me a light of reason compared to other posters in this thread. You can believe whatever you want, but this probably isn’t the best forum for proselytizing. If you can’t provide evidence of your God actually being the bonzai gardener, then you aren’t going to do anything but make yourself more frustrated. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/716 "2013-09-28T15:57:54Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > It terrifies me that you consider me a light of reason compared to other posters in this thread. > > You can believe whatever you want, but this probably isn’t the best forum for proselytizing. If you can’t provide evidence of your God actually being the bonzai gardener, then you aren’t going to do anything but make yourself more frustrated. I am not frustrated now; and I am not proselytizing, at least 93% of all my post in this thread have been responses to others or answers of questions; know the thread. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/717 "2013-09-28T16:12:49Z")
The road to atheism often starts with skepticism in hell. Once that piece of dogma chips off the ole block, it doesn’t take much for all the whole thing to erode away. I give the OP 5 years, tops. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/718 "2013-09-28T17:36:17Z")
> [@Farin](#): > > It terrifies me that you consider me a light of reason compared to other posters in this thread. > > You can believe whatever you want, but this probably isn’t the best forum for proselytizing. If you can’t provide evidence of your God actually being the bonzai gardener, then you aren’t going to do anything but make yourself more frustrated. To the extent that proselytizing is a form of witnessing, I’m afraid that GD is the designated forum for it. Also, it’s _bonsai_. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/719 "2013-09-28T17:47:44Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > To the extent that proselytizing is a form of witnessing, I’m afraid that GD is the designated forum for it. I need to chose my words betterer. I meant “forum” in the sense of “place to meet and discuss” and not “This segment of the SD Forums”. > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Also, it’s _bonsai_. Crafty Asians. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/720 "2013-09-28T19:08:29Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The road to atheism often starts with skepticism in hell. Once that piece of dogma chips off the ole block, it doesn’t take much for all the whole thing to erode away. > > I give the OP 5 years, tops. Nahhh; I view Atheist just like I view Christians; I respect the choices they have made, but its just not for me. I cannot see living life without a belief in God, and I cannot see living it with a distorted view of God. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528.md?page=37)