# The strange concept of eternal hell suffering. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528 "2013-09-23T17:54:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/841 "2013-09-30T17:05:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Where is the evidence for Heaven that does not exist for Hell? > What do demons gain by convincing people that there is a Hell? Now that is an interesting conundrum. If the forces of darkness actually authored the bible, rather than the bearded good guy, they would have a particular interest in promoting the concept of hell, since the threat of it encourages people to adhere to the “holy” doctrine. Phil, the Prince of Insufficient Light, is known to be a great deceiver, creating a really compelling and powerful religion would certainly be his masterwork. I guess the believers just have to take it on faith that they are not being gulled into evil (and seeing how some of them behave, one is led to wonder). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/842 "2013-09-30T17:09:53Z")
It just makes no sense for demons to go through all this for no gain. They get no converts out of the deal, and they directly piss off the one dude that could wipe them out in the blink of an eye. The corniest of villains still have ultimate goals-what’s the goal here? ---
**Author:** ![sentrix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac8455/32.png) [@sentrix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sentrix)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/843 "2013-09-30T17:10:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Where is the evidence for Heaven that does not exist for Hell? > What do demons gain by convincing people that there is a Hell? watch the twilight series, you will find enlightenment. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/844 "2013-09-30T17:13:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Where is the evidence for Heaven that does not exist for Hell? > What do demons gain by convincing people that there is a Hell? That’s an easy one. If there’s a Hell, the demons have to spend most of their time there (because it’s their job). That means they can’t spend all of their time up here in humanland, workin’ their wiles and trippin’ us up. So we get put off our guard, and that makes us complacent, so they can fill our heads and hearts with lies about Hell. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/845 "2013-09-30T20:41:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It just makes no sense for demons to go through all this for no gain. They get no converts out of the deal, and they directly piss off the one dude that could wipe them out in the blink of an eye. The corniest of villains still have ultimate goals-what’s the goal here? Excellent question; in my view, there is no goal, its about revenge in my view; revenge and madness. The demons are angry at God and hate him, and I think they know and understand that THEIR destiny is the lake of fire, and they want that to be the destiny of humanity. They want humans to think their fate, is our fate. Or any perversion of it. The demons are not sane, they were not created to be sane, they were created to be evil and destructive, and that is exactly what they are. In God’s plan of salvation, evil plays a very important part of our development and destiny; as do demons. Its all going exactly like God wants it to. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/846 "2013-09-30T20:44:33Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Excellent question; in my view, there is no goal, its about revenge in my view; revenge and madness. The demons are angry at God and hate him, and I think they know and understand that THEIR destiny is the lake of fire, and they want that to be the destiny of humanity. They want humans to think their fate, is our fate. Or any perversion of it. The demons are not sane, they were not created to be sane, they were created to be evil and destructive, and that is exactly what they are. Created by who? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/847 "2013-09-30T21:02:58Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > . . . The demons are not sane, they were not created to be sane, they were created to be evil and destructive, and that is exactly what they are. . . . The conventional view is that they were created good, as God’s servants and messengers, and that one of them went bad (or insane.) He then deluded the others. They weren’t created to be evil; they achieved that status of their own free will. Now, this isn’t very well attested in the Bible… By the way, if there isn’t any Hell, what is Jesus saying we are liable to when we say to another, “Thou fool?” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/848 "2013-09-30T21:06:17Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The conventional view is that they were created good, as God’s servants and messengers, and that one of them went bad (or insane.) He then deluded the others. They weren’t created to be evil; they achieved that status of their own free will. > > Now, this isn’t very well attested in the Bible… > > By the way, if there isn’t any Hell, what is Jesus saying we are liable to when we say to another, “Thou fool?” Apparently, any quotes involving Hell were put in there by demons, making any actual Biblical scholarship totally unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/849 "2013-09-30T21:26:06Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The conventional view is that they were created good, as God’s servants and messengers, and that one of them went bad (or insane.) He then deluded the others. They weren’t created to be evil; they achieved that status of their own free will. > > Now, this isn’t very well attested in the Bible… > > By the way, if there isn’t any Hell, what is Jesus saying we are liable to when we say to another, “Thou fool?” They were not created as good, they were created evil from their beginning, I totally disagree with the conventional view. On the " Fool issue", I don’t understand what Jesus meant. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/850 "2013-09-30T21:27:23Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > They were not created as good, they were created evil from their beginning, I totally disagree with the conventional view. > > On the " Fool issue", I don’t understand what Jesus meant. Were they created by your god? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/851 "2013-09-30T21:28:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Created by who? Jesus created them. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/852 "2013-09-30T21:33:50Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Yes; you know I believe in God, but I do not believe in this doctrine of everlasting torture. And for that I cannot be a brother to many believers, because if you reject this horror, they will reject you. > > Equally as strange. Well, some of us just take it one imaginary being further. Hopefully, one day you’ll come to this realization too. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/853 "2013-09-30T21:36:46Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Jesus created them. I see. Your god seems to be a right rat bastard, and if I thought there was the _slightest_ chance he existed I’d be signing up for the opposing side so fast your head would spin. What kind of sadistic asshole purposefully creates beings that are both evil and insane? If you can’t trust him to take care of _those_ poor creatures properly, what makes you think he would treat _you_ any better? If I ever decide to take up a religion, yours wouldn’t even be in the top million. As far as the original OP of yours is concerned, “Demons did it!” isn’t Biblical scholarship-it’s uneducated silliness. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/854 "2013-09-30T21:37:11Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Well, some of us just take it one imaginary being further. Hopefully, one day you’ll come to this realization too. In my view, I would not have an imagination if God did not exist. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/855 "2013-09-30T21:39:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I see. > Your god seems to be a right rat bastard, and if I thought there was the _slightest_ chance he existed I’d be signing up for the opposing side so fast your head would spin. What kind of sadistic asshole purposefully creates beings that are both evil and insane? If you can’t trust him to take care of _those_ poor creatures properly, what makes you think he would treat _you_ any better? If I ever decide to take up a religion, yours wouldn’t even be in the top million. As far as the original OP of yours is concerned, “Demons did it!” isn’t Biblical scholarship-it’s uneducated silliness. Well I was having this debate with you without name calling and cursing; since you choose to start doing that, then I choose not to respond to you any longer; I hold no interest in such language in debate. Peace on your journey. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/856 "2013-09-30T21:42:34Z")
Getting back to the OP - I don’t see it as a strange concept - regaurdless of how much ‘support’ there is or is not in the ‘bible’. a) there is a concept of eternal heaven/reward - a corrolary of punishment makes perfect sense. You’re not going to inspire people to ‘shed sin’ if the only downside is an uneventful nap. b) the God of the bible is not above blood lust, massive fits of destruction and even the occasional test of the faithful that requires human sacrifice (abraham/isaac) - anyone that thinks a giant flood is a peaceful way to destroy ‘every living creature’ should go watch some of the videos on youtube related to the hurricanes/storm surges/tsunamis of recent history. c) Jesus himself reffered to it - and its a key part of the final ‘revelation’ - for it to be reserved only for ‘demons’ seems a bit of a letdown considering. So, while it makes no sense if you believe in a loving, forgiving, ‘full of grace’ type of god, it makes perfect sense in the view of the ‘bible god’ - who is anything but. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/857 "2013-09-30T21:47:45Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Getting back to the OP - I don’t see it as a strange concept - regaurdless of how much ‘support’ there is or is not in the ‘bible’. > > a) there is a concept of eternal heaven/reward - a corrolary of punishment makes perfect sense. You’re not going to inspire people to ‘shed sin’ if the only downside is an uneventful nap. > > b) the God of the bible is not above blood lust, massive fits of destruction and even the occasional test of the faithful that requires human sacrifice (abraham/isaac) - anyone that thinks a giant flood is a peaceful way to destroy ‘every living creature’ should go watch some of the videos on youtube related to the hurricanes/storm surges/tsunamis of recent history. > > c) Jesus himself reffered to it - and its a key part of the final ‘revelation’ - for it to be reserved only for ‘demons’ seems a bit of a letdown considering. > > So, while it makes no sense if you believe in a loving, forgiving, ‘full of grace’ type of god, it makes perfect sense in the view of the ‘bible god’ - who is anything but. Well I totally disagree; I do not come away with that view of the bible, and I have read it for over 50 years. My view of it changed over the years, and changed as I changed. It grows on you. And all I see in the bible is universal grace and forgiveness, and hope for all of humanity; so again, its up to how one views it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/858 "2013-09-30T21:52:58Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Well I was having this debate with you without name calling and cursing; since you choose to start doing that, then I choose not to respond to you any longer; I hold no interest in such language in debate. I did not call you any names. I merely insulted a poorly developed fictional character. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/859 "2013-09-30T21:56:29Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Well I totally disagree; I do not come away with that view of the bible, and I have read it for over 50 years. My view of it changed over the years, and changed as I changed. It grows on you. And all I see in the bible is universal grace and forgiveness, and hope for all of humanity; > > so again, its up to how one views it. Do you disagree that the ‘bible god’ has a) destroyed the world once, plans to do it again (soon, any day now) b) required human sacrifice to further his agenda? c) has been known to take side bets with demons on how far a person’s faith can be pushed? (Job) Now, you’ll say “but, but , I don’t believe in the corrupted bible god - I believe in God God - but I use the bible to prove him” - which is again, special pleading since you reject any notion of ‘Gods’ actions that have been recorded in it. And if you’re going to use the Bible to prove God -you really have to take the whole thing. In the end - while you have repeatedly stated you ‘don’t agree with it’ - you have yet to provide a shred of anything to back your side of it up - in the end, you have made it clear that you are a ‘good parts’ believer only and you reject any thing you disagree with as being ‘demonized’. IOW, repeatedly stating your view is not the same as ‘proving’ it - as much as antyhing can be ‘proven’ in a thread like this. You’re position, while pleasant to consider, is not logical within the framework of the bible itself. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/860 "2013-09-30T22:03:19Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Do you disagree that the ‘bible god’ has > a) destroyed the world once, plans to do it again (soon, any day now) > b) required human sacrifice to further his agenda? > c) has been known to take side bets with demons on how far a person’s faith can be pushed? (Job) > > Now, you’ll say “but, but , I don’t believe in the corrupted bible god - I believe in God God - but I use the bible to prove him” - which is again, special pleading since you reject any notion of ‘Gods’ actions that have been recorded in it. And if you’re going to use the Bible to prove God -you really have to take the whole thing. > > In the end - while you have repeatedly stated you ‘don’t agree with it’ - you have yet to provide a shred of anything to back your side of it up - in the end, you have made it clear that you are a ‘good parts’ believer only and you reject any thing you disagree with as being ‘demonized’. > > IOW, repeatedly stating your view is not the same as ‘proving’ it - as much as antyhing can be ‘proven’ in a thread like this. > > You’re position, while pleasant to consider, is not logical within the framework of the bible itself. I have given 67 proofs of God, and two different threads with 100 proofs each contained within them, and archaeological evidence; none of those have been individually disputed by you or anyone here. Now, if you keep trying to " Claim" I have not given proof, at least have the decency to individually disprove each of the two seperate threads of 100, and the 67 others. So, according to decent debate, you have at least 167 proofs I have listed in this thread to contend with, or just to keep trying to ignore. But I already know what your going to do; get to the 167, or stop saying I have no proof. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528.md?page=44)