# The strange concept of eternal hell suffering. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528 "2013-09-23T17:54:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/901 "2013-10-01T09:08:26Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > If the thread does not meet your demands, then close it. It doesn’t meet _anyone’s_ demands. I mean, stuff like this; “Calenders; Where did calendars come from? Where did the concept of measuring days or time come from? Its right in the bible.” Realy. _Really_? We wouldn’t have calenders without the bible!!!11one? In all these 20 years you’ve been ‘debating’ you’ve never ever actually read a bloody history book or highschool science book, have you? I bet they are right beside your Koran, though. **Mickiel** , your ‘arguments’ are all arguments from ignorance. “I don’t know, therefore God.” Really man, start reading other books. ---
**Author:** ![sentrix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac8455/32.png) [@sentrix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sentrix)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/902 "2013-10-01T10:28:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I see. > Your god seems to be a right rat bastard, and if I thought there was the _slightest_ chance he existed I’d be signing up for the opposing side so fast your head would spin. What kind of sadistic asshole purposefully creates beings that are both evil and insane? If you can’t trust him to take care of _those_ poor creatures properly, what makes you think he would treat _you_ any better? If I ever decide to take up a religion, yours wouldn’t even be in the top million. As far as the original OP of yours is concerned, “Demons did it!” isn’t Biblical scholarship-it’s uneducated silliness. pure mischevious derangement. how do you ‘take up a religion?’ is it like adopting a baby, learning a new language? joining a knitting club? from the point of view of those who are born again. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/903 "2013-10-01T12:46:29Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Knowing is how I know it; knowing is birthed by knowing, show me anything in life that is conscious, that became alive and conscious on its own , out of thin air, without being birthed or made by another conscious being. If it were your knowing you could prove it, so what you should say to be truthful is: I believe it. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/904 "2013-10-01T12:49:39Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > So many here ask for a cite, then you give it, and they only spit on it or excuse it away. Reminds me of the man who cried proof; they gave him proof and he only treated the proof like garbage. Same way with evidence, I give long lists of it, and it only gets ignored or stepped on. I don’t see any evidence in anything you make claim to as knowledge, your belief is not evidence, other human’s writings are not evidence either. No one has yet proven a God exists so until there is proof, it will just be believed. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/905 "2013-10-01T12:51:16Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Not the modern scholars that I know of, only those you pick and choose. Heres a list of the modern scholars that agree with everything I have posted about the writers of the gospels; > > Frank E. Gaebelein- Headmaster Emeritus - The Stony Brook School > > William Culbertson-- President Moody Bible Institute > > Charles L. Feinberg---- Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary > > Allan A. Mac Rae ---- President Biblical Theological Seminary > > Clarence E. Mason Jr. — Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible > > Alva J. MC Clain ---- President Emeritus Grace Theological Seminary > > Wilbur M. Smith — Editor, Pelouber’s Select Notes > > John F. Walvoord – President Dallas Theological Seminary Thee humans who believed in other humans, it is not evidence! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/906 "2013-10-01T13:04:23Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Oh so now you want us to believe it came from a small black hole in nothing, then grew greater than the nothing, and just happened to create an earth than just happens to be suitable for humans, and just happened to create humans to populate this earth and just happened to give them consciousness. > > Your giving a whole lot of power to theory; in fact, your giving it Gods power. You do realize you a stating God came from nothing, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/907 "2013-10-01T13:06:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, it doesn’t **name** the Pharoah. The time suggests it was Ramses the 2d. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/908 "2013-10-01T13:41:12Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > It doesn’t meet _anyone’s_ demands. > > I mean, stuff like this; > “Calenders; Where did calendars come from? Where did the concept of measuring days or time come from? Its right in the bible.” > > Realy. _Really_? > We wouldn’t have calenders without the bible!!!11one? > > In all these 20 years you’ve been ‘debating’ you’ve never ever actually read a bloody history book or highschool science book, have you? > > I bet they are right beside your Koran, though. > > **Mickiel** , your ‘arguments’ are all arguments from ignorance. “I don’t know, therefore God.” > > Really man, start reading other books. In the book of Genesis it was God who created human time, he created day and night, and called it day and night. This is a common Theist belief. And we consider the bible to be a history book, and the measurement of time was clearly started by God. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/909 "2013-10-01T14:06:42Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > In the book of Genesis it was God who created human time, he created day and night, and called it day and night. This is a common Theist belief. And we consider the bible to be a history book, and the measurement of time was clearly started by God. Again, you fail to make an actual argument. You cited calenders as proof, right? Argue in what way the existence of calenders proove anything about God or the bible. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/910 "2013-10-01T14:34:26Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Again, you fail to make an actual argument. > You cited calenders as proof, right? > > Argue in what way the existence of calenders proove anything about God or the bible. How can I with someone who does not accept the bible as historical or valid? In Genesis 1:5, God calls the light he made " Day’, and the dark he made " Night", as a direct result of this the ancient humans learned how to construct their calenders. [http://www.firstchurchoftheinternet.org/2cal/2cal1.htm](http://www.firstchurchoftheinternet.org/2cal/2cal1.htm) Explain to me how I can argue this with someone who thinks the bible is a fluke? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/911 "2013-10-01T14:40:37Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > How can I with someone who does not accept the bible as historical or valid? In Genesis 1:5, God calls the light he made " Day’, and the dark he made " Night", as a direct result of this the ancient humans learned how to construct their calenders. > > [http://www.firstchurchoftheinternet.org/2cal/2cal1.htm](http://www.firstchurchoftheinternet.org/2cal/2cal1.htm) > Explain to me how I can argue this with someone who thinks the bible is a fluke? And this is the crux of your problem in this debate - a) you’re presuming the bible to be proof of god b) you haven’t proved that ‘God’ is neccesary the bible has a nice little creation story - “God did it” - that doesn’t prove a) that God existss b) that God ‘did it’ there are LOTS of ‘creation stories’ - what makes the bibles version ‘more accurate’? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/912 "2013-10-01T14:46:20Z")
> [@simster](#): > > And this is the crux of your problem in this debate - > > a) you’re presuming the bible to be proof of god > b) you haven’t proved that ‘God’ is neccesary > > the bible has a nice little creation story - “God did it” - that doesn’t prove > > a) that God existss > b) that God ‘did it’ > > there are LOTS of ‘creation stories’ - what makes the bibles version ‘more accurate’? The man asked what the calender has to do with God? In my view, the history of the calender is steeped in religion and came from religion; obviously you disagree with that; I do not; > **[History of the Jewish Calendar - Ancient Hebrew Calendar](https://www.free-bible.com/jewishyear/jewishyear_history_of_the_calendar.php?)** > > The Ancient Jewish Calendar in the Old Testament ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/913 "2013-10-01T14:48:57Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > The man asked what the calender has to do with God? In my view, the history of the calender is steeped in religion and came from religion; obviously you disagree with that; I do not; > > [History of the Jewish Calendar - Ancient Hebrew Calendar](http://www.bible-history.com/jewishyear/jewishyear_history_of_the_calendar.html) sunrise/sunset and the counting of them along with the lunar cycle does not require an intervention of ‘God’. You say ‘god created that’ - that is your belief - you have not ‘proven’ that. Further - your ‘cite’ does not backup your claim [QUOTE=[History of the Jewish Calendar - Ancient Hebrew Calendar](http://www.bible-history.com/jewishyear/jewishyear_history_of_the_calendar.html)] During the Biblical period the understanding of the Calendar **was based entirely upon the observation of the sun and the moon.** The Talmudic period rested upon observation and reckoning, and the post Talmudic period rested entirely upon reckoning. The Hebrews studied astronomy very carefully because of their intense need for accurate dates in keeping the festivals. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/914 "2013-10-01T14:51:49Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > How can I with someone who does not accept the bible as historical or valid? In Genesis 1:5, God calls the light he made " Day’, and the dark he made " Night", as a direct result of this the ancient humans learned how to construct their calenders. > > [http://www.firstchurchoftheinternet.org/2cal/2cal1.htm](http://www.firstchurchoftheinternet.org/2cal/2cal1.htm) > Explain to me how I can argue this with someone who thinks the bible is a fluke? ‘Night and day’ does not a calender make. A calender makes note of the yearly cycle and divides this cycle into seasons/ months/weeks/days. We humans have had calenders tens of thousands of years before this Yahweh character was invented or the bible was written. But anyway. The question was how do calenders proove the bible is true. You are supposed to show us that. Not whining that we don’t believe the bible. Make us believe the bible. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/915 "2013-10-01T14:58:52Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > ‘Night and day’ does not a calender make. > A calender makes note of the yearly cycle and divides this cycle into seasons/ months/weeks/days. > > We humans have had calenders tens of thousands of years before this Yahweh character was invented or the bible was written. > > But anyway. The question was how do calenders proove the bible is true. > You are supposed to show us that. > Not whining that we don’t believe the bible. Make us believe the bible. I am not trying to force you to believe in the bible, why don’t you just believe in history; the calender came from religion; [http://www.webexhibits.org/calendars/year-history.html](http://www.webexhibits.org/calendars/year-history.html) ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/916 "2013-10-01T15:11:42Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I am not trying to force you to believe in the bible, why don’t you just believe in history; the calender came from religion; > [History Of Our Calendar | Calendars](http://www.webexhibits.org/calendars/year-history.html) How does that prove God? Your OP bashes religion for the invention of Hell… ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/917 "2013-10-01T15:14:31Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I am not trying to force you to believe in the bible, why don’t you just believe in history; the calender came from religion; > [History Of Our Calendar | Calendars](http://www.webexhibits.org/calendars/year-history.html) [http://www.webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-ancient.html](http://www.webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-ancient.html) Read your own cite. There were calenders looong before the bible. And don’t try to switch your particular religion with ‘religion in general’ or any other religion. I believe in history but history is more than what is in the bible. The bible contains _some_ history. Some parts of the bible can even be used by history. But the bible does not cover human history. It only touches a small time frame, in very limited part of the world. You seem to think everything is in the bible. It is not. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/918 "2013-10-01T15:17:01Z")
> [@simster](#): > > How does that prove God? Your OP bashes religion for the invention of Hell… There are only two views of how the moon and stars got here, creation by God, or self creation. The study of them helped create our calender. I am from the camp of creation, not accepting this ,([How did the Moon Form? (with pictures)](http://www.wisegeek.org/how-did-the-moon-form.htm#slideshow)) as how the Moon got here. I accept that the unique order of the stars and planets, is proof of an organizer. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/919 "2013-10-01T15:19:22Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > [Other Ancient Calendars | Calendars](http://www.webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-ancient.html) > Read your own cite. There were calenders looong before the bible. > And don’t try to switch your particular religion with ‘religion in general’ or any other religion. > > I believe in history but history is more than what is in the bible. > The bible contains _some_ history. Some parts of the bible can even be used by history. > But the bible does not cover human history. It only touches a small time frame, in very limited part of the world. > You seem to think everything is in the bible. It is not. I don’t think everything is in the bible, and I am not in a particular religion; I am not religious, I just don’t think religion or the church can be subtracted from their involvement in history. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/920 "2013-10-01T15:34:43Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Mickiel- > > You’re not learning. This is Great Debates. This is where one debates. This is not where one makes unsupported assertions. One can witness here. In fact, it’s encouraged. However, you’re not even doing that. Clean up your act and actually try to defend a position. > > You are now officially warned. This could be an excellent thread. But only you can make it so. I am doing my best. That’s all I can do; I am arguing against more than 10 different people every day and more, I know I stand alone in my views, and I express them as best I know how. I know the thread will eventually be closed, and I hold no grudge about that destiny. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528.md?page=47)