# The stupid - it burns! (Isil infiltrating u.s.-bound refugees) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 20, 2015, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050 "2015-11-20T04:55:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050/81 "2015-11-22T16:35:04Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > …And showing some hope that as a nation we still aspire to be “as a city upon a hill”. That was then, this is now. Post Regan, its the “Citadel on the Hill”. No fishing, no swimming, no dumping, know nothing. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050/82 "2015-11-22T17:03:23Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > What is the equivalent benefit that western countries gain by having thousands of people coming into the countries that will at best be on the government dole and be a financial burden, or at worst be terrorists? There is absolutely zero benefit to admitting these people other than puffing up our chests about how “compassionate” we are. The 200,000 Vietnamese that came to America as refugees (because staying in Vietnam would be deadly for them as they helped the USA or they believed in what our entertainment media and propaganda) demonstrated later that a lot of business deals and ties that then increase our economy were facilitated by the Vietnamese-American community we had in the USA 40 years later. Before that virtually all of those immigrants became proud Americans and actually worked to continue to make this a great nation. In the case of the Syrians we need to look at a typical refugee that came to my neck of the woods recently with his family: > **[A Syrian family fleeing war finds refuge in Phoenix](https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2015/08/06/syrian-family-finds-refuge-phoenix/30591431/)** > > A small but growing number of Syrian refugees are now being resettled in the United States. > [@](#): > > Inspired by the Arab Spring pro-democracy uprisings in other parts of the region, thousands of protesters began demonstrating in Syrian cities in March 2011 in opposition to President Bashar al-Assad and his repressive government. > > The demonstrations, however, quickly descended into civil war after security forces fired on protesters and anti-government demonstrators took up arms. The extremist group Islamic State, also known as ISIS, has since entered the conflict, which according to the United Nations has killed more than 220,000 people and wounded another 840,000. > > Homs was devastated during a siege that lasted three years as Assad’s regime used military force to root out rebel forces. > > Hamsah recalled that civilians risked being shot in the street by government snipers during the siege. One of Thagreed’s uncles was killed by a sniper while returning home from work, Hamsah said. > [@](#): > > By March 2012, their neighborhood had turned into a war zone. The streets were filled with armed militias from different opposition groups. > > That month, the military surrounded their neighborhood with tanks. The military began firing rockets and bombs into their neighborhood, killing and wounding civilians, Hamsah said. One rocket struck the apartment next door. > > Hamsah and his family ran for their lives. > > “Whatever we were wearing, that is what we took,” Hamsah said. > > With the help of opposition groups, the couple and their small children fled to another part of the city. But within days the fighting spread there. > [@](#): > > They finally decided to seek refuge in neighboring Jordan, traveling first to the southern city of Daraa by taxi and then walking the final miles across the border on foot. > > After spending two years and three months living as refugees in Amman, Jordan, Hamsah and his family learned through the United Nations that their applications for resettlement in another country had been accepted. > > You have the opportunity to live in the United States, they were told. > > “We never dreamed of living in the United States,” Thagreed said. “We were living a very simple life. We never dreamed of leaving Syria.” > > They landed at Sky Harbor airport in Phoenix on July 1. Basically we have you as ignorant of the reasons why they became refugees, there was a lot of information and propaganda from the west to become more democratic, and the USA had made the point that Assad had to go, we did then supported opposition that allied to the west, the latest developments IMHO show that we will have to pull back from the idea to topple Assad from the time being and just like in Vietnam we have moral and tactical reasons why we should accept the people that did risk their lives to follow our ideal and that we encouraged them to get rid of the dictator. > [@UltraVires](#): > > I’m sure you believe that makes me bigoted, but once again that word gets in the way of honest debate about a lot of things. It has been said that racism and bigotry are just extreme types of ignorance, less extreme but still ignorant goes for prejudging people that need our help after they risked it all for either democracy or our support. We do not only have the classical moral reasons to help as with the Vietnam refugees, there are even other moral reasons for the Syrian refugees. > **[New video emphasizes moral, ethical messages » Yale Climate Connections](https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2015/10/video-emphasizes-moral-ethical-messages/)** > > Climate scientists in 'This is Not Cool video emphasize need to focus now on moral and ethical dimensions. The video at the bottom talks about the moral implication of not doing anything about climate change, one needs to watch only the first 1 minute and 30 seconds to see the connection with the Syria situation; and how powerful fossil fuel corporations, many of them American, refused to listen to their own scientists about the risks of the CO2 released causing more intense droughts. New studies point at the big drought that happened in Syria as a very important factor that started the civil war that took place. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050/83 "2015-11-22T20:01:09Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > The reason why these are not good analogies is that you have a benefit to traveling on airplanes and having a wife. You can travel to far away places and you have companionship and a life partner. When you do a risk/benefit analysis, you see that the positive attributes of those two things far outweigh the minuscule risk of dying in a plane crash or misjudging the character of your spouse and being murdered. > > What is the equivalent benefit that western countries gain by having thousands of people coming into the countries that will at best be on the government dole and be a financial burden, or at worst be terrorists? There is absolutely zero benefit to admitting these people other than puffing up our chests about how “compassionate” we are. > > Millions of people in the world are suffering, but we don’t help them all; we have to be selective. I don’t see the reason to help these particular people at the expense of others when its only purpose is to fulfill some left wing masturbatory fantasy about showing how much we really, really don’t hate all Muslims, when there is a very real, non-zero, chance of causing the death of our own innocent civilians. > > I’m sure you believe that makes me bigoted, but once again that word gets in the way of honest debate about a lot of things. Possibly one of those refugees might have a child who will grow up to invent something cool like the iPhone that revolutionizes our world? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050/84 "2015-11-22T20:43:11Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > What is the equivalent benefit that western countries gain by having thousands of people coming into the countries that will at best be on the government dole and be a financial burden, or at worst be terrorists? There is absolutely zero benefit to admitting these people other than puffing up our chests about how “compassionate” we are. I don’t know about other countries, but in the US refugees are given assistance for only a limited time. They are expected to get work and start supporting themselves… and most do so (the elderly and children being the chief exceptions). Once they are employed they pay taxes and therefore contribute to the common good. They buy stuff with their paychecks, which also contributes to the common good. They sometimes start businesses, including but not limited to ethnic restaurants, which other members of the community patronize, pay business taxes, and start employing other people, either fellow refugees or people who have been here all along. In other words, if you allow refugees to actually participate in society they become contributing members and everyone benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050/85 "2015-11-22T21:08:34Z")
I heard [this story](http://www.npr.org/2015/09/09/438797620/many-question-why-the-u-s-isnt-taking-in-more-syrian-refugees) on NPR’s Morning Edition a couple of months ago. It’s about a Syrian-American who owns an IT business in North Carolina. He has (or had) a cousin who lives (or lived) with his family in Damascus. The Syrian-American tried to sponsor the cousin’s family to come to the US but was not able to do so. The cousin is also trained in IT so presumably he could work for his cousin in North Carolina. In other words, the family would not be a burden on the public. And there are other Syrian-Americans who are willing to assist people in resettling here. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050/86 "2015-11-22T21:12:55Z")
They work in IT? And that isn’t grounds for suspicion, right there? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050/87 "2015-11-22T22:21:33Z")
Oh, heavens - that’s like saying if he’s an auto mechanic he might build a car bomb! Honestly, just about _anything_ can be viewed with suspicion these days. Is the guy a cook? He might poison someone! Plumber? Might sabotage a city water system. Want to know the most famous Syrian involved in IT? Steve Jobs. Yeah, that worked out badly. :rolleyes: Maybe we should dig him up and FedEx him to Damascus, hmm? Yeah, some guy in IT _might_ be a bad dude. So could the American-born guy of some European ancestry waiting next to you at the bus stop. Stop assuming all people of a given nationality are criminals or terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050/88 "2015-11-22T23:03:02Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Ask and you shall [receive](http://www.abc15.com/news/state/border-patrol-detains-6-middle-eastern-men-along-arizona-border). > > Are they terrorists? I don’t know, but I’d bet the odds are more they are than they aren’t. [ol] [li]These are not refugees. Do you know what refugees are?[/li][li]These people being caught is evidence that maybe we’re not so bad at keeping people out when they might pose more of a threat than the average Mexican woman trying to clean some houses in California.[/li][li]There is no evidence these people are terrorists. If there was, the media would be screaming that fact.[/ol] The fact that you “bet the odds are more they are” says more about your preconceived prejudices than the facts at hand.[/li] Oh, and your own cite says "CBP said the “records checks revealed no derogatory information about the individuals.” So yeah, I’m going with preconceived prejudices. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050/89 "2015-11-22T23:27:27Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Oh, heavens - that’s like saying if he’s an auto mechanic he might build a car bomb! > > Honestly, just about _anything_ can be viewed with suspicion these days. Is the guy a cook? He might poison someone! Plumber? Might sabotage a city water system. > > Want to know the most famous Syrian involved in IT? Steve Jobs. Yeah, that worked out badly. :rolleyes: Maybe we should dig him up and FedEx him to Damascus, hmm? > > Yeah, some guy in IT _might_ be a bad dude. So could the American-born guy of some European ancestry waiting next to you at the bus stop. Stop assuming all people of a given nationality are criminals or terrorists. You do, of course, realize that that was **elucidator** you were responding to, right? Don’t you? Perhaps the fact that in that post he wasn’t ripping off Mark Twain or John Brunner confused you. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050/90 "2015-11-22T23:32:10Z")
Talent borrows, genius steals. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050/91 "2015-11-22T23:41:17Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Talent borrows, genius steals. Well, apparently that is at least one long-term poster on the board that can’t recognize sarcasm when she sees it. Perhaps you should notate your own words with “Not stolen from a dead famous writer, but still sarcasm.” I’m not serious. Amuse yourself, and if you amuse anyone else, that’s just a bonus. That’s what I do. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050/92 "2015-11-22T23:44:06Z")
You’re saying you’re both self-amusers? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050/93 "2015-11-23T13:36:23Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Well, apparently that is at least one long-term poster on the board that can’t recognize sarcasm when she sees it. Yes, sarcasm doesn’t always come across well in text. This should not be news to anyone who’s been on the internet any length of time. That’s why some people put a :rolleyes: or a [/sarcasm] at the end of sarcasm, to better communicate. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050/94 "2015-11-23T15:46:07Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes, sarcasm doesn’t always come across well in text. This should not be news to anyone who’s been on the internet any length of time. > > That’s why some people put a :rolleyes: or a [/sarcasm] at the end of sarcasm, to better communicate. Some people merely put the word **elucidator** at the beginning of their posts. Means the same thing. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050/95 "2015-11-23T17:06:36Z")
And some of us are not **elucidator** groupies, so we wouldn’t know that. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050/96 "2015-11-23T17:11:44Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Firstly, I have no idea what the current political climate is in the USA but… > > …ISIS will almost certainly be trying and will continue trying to get people into western countries under cover of refugee status. There is absolutely no downsides to trying to do so and every terrorist organisation that ever existed has tried to infiltrate the enemy. > > Only a few short weeks ago we saw the likes of Germany opening doors to tens of thousands of displaced Syrians. Are the vast, vast majority genuinely in fear of their lives? Definitely. Are there likely to be ISIS agents/operatives/terrorists in amongst them? Definitely. Are they likely to be successful in their attempt to establish themselves in the west? Let’s hope not but Almost certainly some will get through. > > It is not racist, bigoted or “Islamaphobic” to state this. Those accusations are made simply to shut down debate on the practical safeguards needed to screen out extremists and allow in the deserving refugees. True. Especially since we already know that they have infiltrated refugees in Europe. It is quite reasonable to assume that they will do the same for refugees to the USA. > **['Just wait…' Islamic State reveals it has smuggled THOUSANDS of extrem](https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/555434/Islamic-State-ISIS-Smuggler-THOUSANDS-Extremists-into-Europe-Refugees)** > > AN OPERATIVE working for Islamic State has revealed the terror group has successfully smuggled thousands of covert jihadists into Europe. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050/97 "2015-11-23T17:27:47Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > True. Especially since we already know that they have infiltrated refugees in Europe. It is quite reasonable to assume that they will do the same for refugees to the USA. > > [Islamic State reveals it has smuggled THOUSANDS of extremists into Europe | World | News | Express.co.uk](http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/555434/Islamic-State-ISIS-Smuggler-THOUSANDS-Extremists-into-Europe-Refugees) Except that the process in the US and Europe are completely different. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050/98 "2015-11-23T17:47:57Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And some of us are not **elucidator** groupies, so we wouldn’t know that. Lighten up, Francis. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050/99 "2015-11-23T17:53:29Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And some of us are not **elucidator** groupies, so we wouldn’t know that. Anybody who’s ever read any of his posts would know that. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050/100 "2015-11-23T18:02:25Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > True. Especially since we already know that they have infiltrated refugees in Europe. It is quite reasonable to assume that they will do the same for refugees to the USA. > [Islamic State reveals it has smuggled THOUSANDS of extremists into Europe | World | News | Express.co.uk](http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/555434/Islamic-State-ISIS-Smuggler-THOUSANDS-Extremists-into-Europe-Refugees) What **even sven** said, and it is quite reasonable to assume also that you did not read the rest of the thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-stupid-it-burns-isil-infiltrating-u-s-bound-refugees/738050.md?page=6)