# The Sun Hasn't Yet Risen **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 22, 2000, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077 "2000-04-22T19:30:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![techchick68](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@techchick68](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/techchick68)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2000, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077/21 "2000-04-23T03:22:00Z")
Anytime SingleDad, I just hope that I am correct when I make a correction 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![techchick68](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@techchick68](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/techchick68)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2000, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077/22 "2000-04-23T03:24:00Z")
If not, draw right foot back and kick me squarely in the ass…sometimes I need it. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077/23 "2000-04-24T05:57:00Z")
SingleDad But, why were the guns brandished inside the house? * * * rocks ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2000, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077/24 "2000-04-23T18:06:00Z")
Brandishing weapons is SOP according to law enforcement authorities in this type of situation, which they regarded as a hostage situation. People who are scared out of their wits have a distinct aversion to fighting back apparently. If the operation had proceeded slowly, a crowd would have formed, people would have started throwing things or even grabbing weapons. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2000, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077/25 "2000-04-23T18:31:00Z")
Sorry, Lib, but you are just wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong about this one. > [@](#): > > Jackbooted thugs in battlegear smash down the door of a private home, inhabited by peaceful people who shelter a little boy from a tyrant. His father is a tyrant? Hmmm. Must have missed that one in the news. > [@](#): > > The house is torn apart. The headboard is broken off the boy’s bed. Doors are lying in splintered pieces in the wake of the army’s invasion. And why is that? Because the kidnappers inside didn’t open the doors when they were requested to do so. They did not follow the law and turn over the child _as they had previously promised to do_. **They** were in complete control of the situation until that point, and **they** could have avoided it by simply obeying the law and turning over the child **to his father**. You know, this whole thing is very simply answered if you can honestly answer the following question: If it were your son, what would you think? I bet you wouldn’t be criticizing the police and federal officials who have enforced the law and court’s decision to **give the child back to his father**. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2000, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077/26 "2000-04-23T23:21:00Z")
**Phil** Shame on you. **All** “Those who keep clamoring for Juan Gonzalez’s parental rights are in desperate need of a reality check. There are no parental rights in Castro’s communist Cuba. Elian will be a ward of the state. For those who love liberty and care about children, this is simply unacceptable.” — David Limbaugh, World Net Daily The above pretty well expresses my sentiments. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2000, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077/27 "2000-04-23T23:25:00Z")
**David** {quote]If it were your son, what would you think? [/quote] Hmmm. I would think along these lines: ‘Since I know that if I take him back, I will have to give him over to a heartless tyrant who ones both me and him, I prefer to give up my own life and freedom in order to secure his.’ How 'bout you? ---
**Author:** ![Threll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Threll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Threll)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2000, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077/28 "2000-04-23T23:38:00Z")
If Communisum has done one thing for Cuba it has helped it. They now have public schools, hospitals, and are starting to raze a strong economy dispite the usa. Once Castro and the santions are dead Cuba will become a more free county. Look at it this way the kid is 6 and Castro is past 60. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077/29 "2000-04-24T00:24:00Z")
I’m not ashamed to say that when I first saw the post, I was a little excited: A Libertarian poet! We definitely need a few of those. Having read further, I’m a little disappointed. The poetry stopped; still waiting for the Libertarian part. How is it that being a Cuban citizen means you have no parental rights? Are we going to adjudicate this according to US law or Cuban law? Hypothetically, if he has no right to life in Cuba, is it kosher to kill him? * * * Only a small number of people are truly awake. These people go through life in a state of constant amazement. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077/30 "2000-04-24T00:36:00Z")
Lib said: > [@](#): > > Hmmm. I would think along these lines: > > ‘Since I know that if I take him back, I will have to give him over to a heartless tyrant who ones both me and him, I prefer to give up my own life and freedom in order to secure his.’ > > How 'bout you? I’m sorry to be blunt, but: Bullshit. You don’t know anything that you are claiming. Do you have any actual evidence that his father will have to “give him over” to Castro? Unless you have evidence that the father is not fit (and I doubt you do, other than that he doesn’t subscribe to your political leanings), there is simply **no reason** the father should not have him back. Now, maybe if you were the father, you would use the opportunity of going to America to _stay_ here. But Elian’s father obviously wants to go back. It is not your place to question why. For all you know, he wants to help freedom expand when Castro eventually dies or is deposed. Or maybe not. Maybe he’s a godless commie. If he is, **so what**? Last time I checked, freedom including a freedom to disagree with the Libertarian viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![bantmof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/96bed5/32.png) [@bantmof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bantmof)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077/31 "2000-04-24T00:39:00Z")
> [@](#): > > The above pretty well expresses my sentiments. Which is fine, but do understand that you do not have the right to force _other_ people to give up their own children just because _you_ think they might have a better life living somewhere else. That is not, and will never be, your decision to make. The boy’s father just wanted his kid back (and it sure looks like the kid is awfully happy to be back in his dad’s arms). By virtually any moral or legal standard in any nation, he has that right, and no one has the right to kidnap his child due to differences in political ideology. If you wouldn’t want someone to take your children away from you because they didn’t like your politics or your government, then perhaps you should consider granting the same basic right to your fellow human beings. Your user ID is “Libertarian”, but you seem to espouse a viewpoint more commonly associated with the most repressive of dictatorial regimes. – peas on earth ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077/32 "2000-04-24T00:53:00Z")
> [@](#): > > How is it that being a Cuban citizen means you have no parental rights? Well, Smartass, since you asked… Here’s a few exerpts from the U.S. Department of State, [Cuba Country Report on Human Rights Practices for 1998](http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/1998_hrp_report/cuba.html), Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, February 26, 1999: > [@](#): > > Cuba is a totalitarian state controlled by President Fidel Castro, who is Chief of State, Head of Government, First Secretary of the Communist Party, and commander in chief of the armed forces. President Castro exercises control over all aspects of Cuban life through the Communist Party and its affiliated mass organizations, the government bureaucracy, and the state security apparatus. The Communist Party is the only legal political entity, and President Castro personally chooses the membership of the Politburo, the select group that heads the party. There are no contested elections for the 601-member National Assembly of People’s Power (ANPP), which meets twice a year for a few days to rubber stamp decisions and policies already decided by the Government. The Party controls all government positions, including judicial offices. The judiciary is completely subordinate to the Government and to the Communist Party. > [@](#): > > Although the Constitution provides for the inviolability of a citizen’s home and correspondence, official surveillance of private and family affairs by government-controlled mass organizations, such as the CDR’s, remains one of the most pervasive and repressive features of Cuban life. The State has assumed the right to interfere in the lives of citizens, even those who do not actively oppose the Government and its practices. > [@](#): > > The Government severely restricted worker rights, including the right to form independent unions. The Government employs forced labor, including that by children. > [@](#): > > Citizens do not have the legal right to change their government or to advocate change, and the Government has retaliated systematically against those who sought peaceful political change. The Constitution proscribes any political organization other than the Communist Party. While the Constitution provides for direct election of provincial, municipal, and National Assembly members, the candidates must be approved in advance by mass organizations controlled by the Government. In practice, a small group of leaders, under the direction of President Castro, select the members of the highest policy-making bodies of the Communist Party–the Politburo and the Central Committee. > [@](#): > > Education is free and is grounded in Marxist ideology. State organizations and schools are charged with the "integral formation of children and youth. > [@](#): > > There is no societal pattern of abuse of children, other than in the area of prostitution, where young girls form the bulk of the large number of prostitutes catering to foreign tourists. It is illegal for a child under 17 years of age to engage in prostitution, but the police do not actively enforce this law. > [@](#): > > The Government prohibits forced and bonded child labor; however, it requires children to work without compensation… The Government prohibits forced and bonded labor by children; however, the Government requires children to work without compensation. All students over age 11 are expected to devote 30 to 45 days of their summer vacation to farm work, laboring up to 8 hours per day. The Ministry of Agriculture uses “voluntary labor” by student work brigades extensively in the farming sector. * * * Questions: Is the father free to leave the Cuban enclave where he is currently held, and travel and speak freely? Is the family of the father, left behind in Cuba, safe if the father defects to join his son? When they return to Cuba, will the father be allowed to raise his son in whatever way he sees fit? Convince me that the answer to _any one_ of those three questions is “yes”, and we will change our minds right here on the spot. Check out the State Department’s report. — Mr. and Mrs. Lib ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077/33 "2000-04-24T01:45:00Z")
Thanks for clarifying that he has no parental rights in Cuba. He still has them here. And he is not required to disprove your charges to exercise those rights. I’ll ask again, you want to go by Cuban law or US law? The reason why parental rights are so important is that it’s not for you to say what’s best for another man’s child. Just as it is not for him to say what is right for yours? Obviously, his decisions are complicated and involve trade-offs that we think are unfair. He still gets to make them, though. If he really thought that his son would be in danger in Cuba, do you really think there is any amount of pressure or coercion that could force him to take the child back there? * * * Only a small number of people are truly awake. These people go through life in a state of constant amazement. ---
**Author:** ![bantmof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/96bed5/32.png) [@bantmof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bantmof)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077/34 "2000-04-24T01:54:00Z")
> [@](#): > > When they return to Cuba, will the father be allowed to raise his son in whatever way he sees fit? That’s rather an ironic question given that even in this country there are people who would take his child from him just because they don’t like the country he’s from. – peas on earth ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077/35 "2000-04-24T02:24:00Z")
I think Bantmof hit the nail on the head here: > [@](#): > > you do not have the right to force other people to give up their own children just because you think they might have a better life living somewhere else. Awfully funny for a guy who espouses libertarianism every chance he gets to now be saying he should force his views on somebody else… > [@](#): > > That is not, and will never be, your decision to make. The boy’s father just wanted his kid back (and it sure looks like the kid is awfully happy to be back in his dad’s arms). Precisely. I truly fear the day when the government will get to decide who is or is not a fit parent based on their political beliefs. Apparently, despite his chosen alias here, “Libertarian” can’t wait for that to happen. > [@](#): > > By virtually any moral or legal standard in any nation, he has that right, and no one has the right to kidnap his child due to differences in political ideology. Precisely (again). ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077/36 "2000-04-24T02:38:00Z")
> [@](#): > > **Phil** > > Shame on you. No, **Lib**. The correct response was: “You’re right, Phil. My apologies.” What the hell should he be ashamed of, Lib? Pointing out an inconsistency in you posts? Geez louise, it happens, just accept it and move on. And don’t you think it’s interesting that you’re so quick to cite a US Government Agency report on Cuba after spending so much time decrying Government inefficiencies and abuses? -andros- ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077/37 "2000-04-24T02:49:00Z")
Wait a minute! I just figured it out! I know what’s up with Lib. For those of you who didn’t already know, Lib got married this morning. Obviously, his brain is addled with love. That is certainly the only way to explain him taking such an anti-Libertarian stance here. Phew! Good thing we got that straightened out… ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077/38 "2000-04-24T05:06:00Z")
Actually, Libertarian’s take on the issue is quite straightforward: [ul][li]Agents of the Federal Government took Elian from his grandparents and gave him to his father.[/li][li]Everything the Federal Government does is wrong.[/li][li]Therefore, taking Elian from his grandparents and giving him to his father was wrong.[/ul][/li] See? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077/39 "2000-04-24T10:46:00Z")
**Phil** Okay, I’m willing to listen to you because I trust you. Based on what I’ve listed as my reservations, please explain what I am missing. Specifically, how is it that the father is not merely a tool of The State, being used for the purpose of returning the boy to slavery and oppression? You understand, of course, that if the father were a free man, I would be the first to recognize the INS as a liberation force. But if the father is merely Castro’s fly-catcher (because he rightfully fears for the safety and welfare of his family in Cuba), then why does that not bear on the matter? ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2000, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077/40 "2000-04-24T11:21:00Z")
I feel so … used. **Lib** How do you reconcile your posts to this topic with your words quoted by pldennison 04-22-2000 03:38 PM? Is it really only that you’ve been recently educated by the writings of David Limbaugh? * * * rocks [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sun-hasnt-yet-risen/18077.md?page=3)