The SUV saga....

Great Debates
61

We have decided that our next vehicle will be a (used) 4 wheel drive diesel Suburban. Our Windstar just isn’t quite big/flexible enough to handle all the requirements of a large family and my job.

We need a vehicle that will go nearly anywhere, carry a few tons of building materials, tow 12,000+ pounds, carry our entire family of 7 and a few guests, offer decent safety, and get nearly the same mileage as our much smaller minivan.

The Suburban Assault Vehicle (S.A.V.) meets all the requirements.

The diesel should actually be more economical in the city than our minivan and will get nearly the same mpg as our minivan on the highway. The stats on the 6.5 turbo diesel are 17mpg city and 23 mpg hwy.

Just to make everyone happy we’re also looking for a diesel VW golf or Jetta which gets 50mpg city and nearly 90mpg hwy for those trips that don’t require the S.A.V.

I could always carry the VW in the back of the S.A.V. in case I need a spare vehicle… :slight_smile:

It’s all about fuction, if my vehicle wasn’t needed for the aforementioned purposes I could get by with the Windstar.

Driving a S.A.V. for any other reason doesn’t make sense to me.

62

Well, if by “do better” you mean that they are less liable to get stuck then sure, but I don’t think they are significantly less liable to skid…And this combination can create a pretty dangerous situation for the rest of us when the SUV driver thinks he can just tool through the snow at regular cruising speed!

Also, I live in Rochester NY and have a little Plymouth Colt. I put snow tires on it (all 4 wheels) in the winter rather than staying with all-seasons; this is way more cost-effective than spending an extra $10000-odd on an SUV and probably does better for avoiding skidding than four-wheel drive. (What really bugs me are SUV owners who spring for the SUV but then decide they can’t spring for snow tires for it…I mean that just seems stupid to me!)

And since most of my car’s weight is over the front drive wheels, my traction is pretty damn good. I think in my 6 winters years living here, there was probably one time when we got so much snow that I really could have needed an SUV rather than my car and, even then, I think the wiser move was just to stay the hell home! Some people sat stuck on the highways for 12 hours!

63

You left out:

  1. They can carry more stuff around than a car can.
  2. With the exception of those faux 2-wheel-drive-only SUVs, they’re less likely to get stuck in the mud* or the snow.
  3. Since they have pick-up truck engines, the engines probably last longer.

*) Week after Xmas 1999, driving down a rural highway on a loooooong shortcut, I pulled over to look at the stars. Turned out the shoulder was all mud, and my car got stuck. If my car had had 4-wheel-drive capability, I probably could have pulled out of the mud on my own, but as it was, I had to call a tow truck, and I had no idea where the Sam Hill I was.

64

Oh, and:

  1. There’s more room to hump in the back of an SUV than in the back of a car. (Even a station wagon.)
65

But, that defeats the fun and challenge of it. You might as well be home in a king-sized bed! :wink:

66

enipla: I was just trying to sum up the arguments I have read in this thread. The one that really sticks out in my mind is the “status symbol” argument–it has been noted above that where needs for moving the kids around are concerned, people are choosing SUVs not because they are more practical, but because they are less wussy in the eyes of their peers. God forbid a couple with a family be stuck with an un-cool station wagon (Feynn excepted. I recognize that there are folks out there for whom an SUV is a good, practical match). After all, who would want to be motoring around in a $30,000 (CDN) Subaru Forrester when they can have a great big-ass Chevy Trailblazer for the same price?

Again, I don’t deny that there are people out there who need SUVs for one reason or another. But I do not believe that in the last five years, a massive explosion in the “need” for SUVs occurred–you’ll have real trouble justifying to me how a company like Ford can be banging out two trucks for every one car they make this year. The average person has not suddenly had the need to drive 6-8 people around, nor has he suddenly developed the need to haul a half-ton of freight, nor does he need to take his Cadillac SUV off-road to the cabin for the weekend.

But perhaps I’m overreacting, since every time I get into my Tercel (which is all I can afford, I’m afraid) I have to travel in a swarm of SUVs which I can’t see around, which are shining their too-bright lights in my rearview mirror, and which are double parking in the local lot because it takes a little extra effort to squeeze into a space properly.

BTW, I drove a 1/2 ton truck for more than two years at my last job, so I do understand their usefulness. I’m not against the drivers who put their trucks/SUVs to good use, I’m against the ones who get them to drive, by themselves, without cargo, to a white-collar job and back.

67

Okay guys, here’s the perfect vehicle for everyone: The Subaru WRX Wagon.

You want cargo capacity? It’s got 90.1 sq ft of it.

You want good handling in snow? Full-time all-wheel drive with limited slip differentials. They race these in the snow. This is probably the best-handling vehicle on snow you can buy in a showroom.

You want performance? This thing will beat a Mustang GT in a straight line, and blow it away in the curves. Try 0-60 in 5.4 seconds, and cornering ability that rivals the best sports cars. Plus huge Brembo brakes, leather steering wheel, awesome racing buckets standard, a heavy-duty clutch, and a 5-speed manual tranny with a short-throw shifter.

You want safety? This is one of the highest-rated cars on the road for safety. Integrated roll cage and an oval crash-tube surrounding the passenger cabin.

You want ‘macho’? Get the optional 17in wheels for that aggressive look. But I prefer the ‘sleeper’ look myself. Hey look, it’s a small wagon! Now look at its taillights…

You want fuel economy? Keep your foot light so you don’t kick in that monster turbo, and you’ll get close to 30mpg.

You want economy? It’s only 24 grand, the engine is bulletproof, and it has one of the highest reliability ratings of any car on the road.

Car and Driver put one up against an Audi S4 and a BMW 330i, and it beat the Beamer and tied the Audi. Both of those cars are almost twice as much money.

There. Let’s all buy WRXs, and instead of fighting about cars we’ll get together on weekends and go rally racing (this car held the World Rally Championship title three years in a row before this year).

This will probably be my next vehicle after the Windstar goes away (which can’t happen too soon, in my book. Piece of junk).

68

Sam… the WRX isn’t for everyone.

I don’t think they make a version that seats 9 or will carry a few dozen full sheets of plywood or drywall.

If Subaru did, I’d be looking at buying one. They make some great cars.

69

Yeah, I know. I was being a bit flippant. But they ARE nice cars, if you don’t need serious hauling capability. A good compromise for people who still want a sports car, but have a family and need to haul groceries, too.

70

plus, so fast, so very fast :smiley:

I test drove one of the regular WRX’s (non-wagon) and before I noticed, I was doing 105 up a pretty steep hill. Me like.

71

I must protest, sir!

It’s an un-cool minivan that a couple with a family hates to be stuck with.

72

I see it. The posts by ElJeffe. There are folks such as ElJeffe that buy them for what I would say are the wrong reasons. Or different reasons. Just like sports cars.

I live in an area where 75% of the population drives some sort of SUV/Truck AWD car. The rest of the population is either visiting, or limited in what they can do in the winter. And summer for that matter.

I live in a rural area (central Colorado Rockies) I drive a ’93 Pathfinder 50 miles on 2 lane mountain highways everyday, I go over the continental divide twice a day.

Recently I have rented and driven small cars in both Pittsburgh and Denver. Pittsburgh is basically a bitch to drive in, but it never bothered me that other cars are bigger than me. Denver is pretty easy. But it is probably the SUV capitol of the world. I won’t deny that a Civic is easier to see around than a Suburban. So deal with it. I do it unconsciously.

Don’t pull in front of anyone when a light may turn red….

Can’t make the turn? Go around the block….

Don’t tailgate someone else because someone is tailgating you….

Don’t fear vehicles, fear drivers. Watch them. Keep your distance when you need to. Don’t assume he is going to turn because his turn signal is on. Which way is his head pointing? Can he see you?

You may be in the ‘right’ when going through the green light. But if you don’t look for the guy that isn’t paying attention, you might also be dead.

A Honda Civic can kill you and so can an 18-wheeler. You will be just as dead. You never know. If you don’t drive with this kind of attitude, you may not be driving very long.

If you can’t drive and talk, don’t. That goes for both cell-phones and passengers.

Know your limitations.

It’s nothing more than being a considerate and defensive driver.

It’s worked for me for 27 years.

73

I recommend that you pay better attention.

You were going 105 on a test drive?

Get a safer hobby. O.K?

You are just the kind of person that a good driver has to keep their eye out for.

Sheeeesss. That’s not something you should brag about.

74

My most humble apologies. My bad.

I still stand by the argument, though.

75

I consider myself an extremely diligent driver. I have been involoved in one accident, 15 years ago, when a guy ran a red light in front of me.

The problem is reality. In the real world, people make mistakes all over the road, for the reasons you mentioned. Regardless of how close or far I am from the back end of a Suburban, or GMC Denial, I can’t see far enough ahead of my car to safely anticipate what the traffic is doing. And since there is also an SUV on either side of me and one behind me most mornings, I can’t simply change lanes to open up my line of sight. And if I back off far enough, you can count on it that someone will jump in front of me to fill the empty space.

Talking about blaming the driver, not the vehicle is all well and good, but presupposes that most drivers are responsible and know the limitaions of their vehicles. In my experience, that is not the case–not even close. The tailgating, cell-phone-talking, red-light-running, non-turn-signal-using, yelling-at-the-kids-in-the-back-seat-instead-of-watching-the-road masses are found in every type of vehicle and the ones in big, heavy, poor handling road monsters are especially dangerous. The vehicle in question is part of the equation because it makes the level of danger that much more severe. If I can’t see what the idiot three vehicles ahead of me is doing because there’s an SUV directly in front of me, I can’t react properly.

Here’s an example from my own life: stuck behind an SUV, when suddenly he stands on the brakes and cuts into the next lane over without a turn signal, revealing to me that police have diverted traffic from that lane. I am forced to panic stop to avoid the blocade, then wait for an opening in the next lane over. The near miss would have been completely avoided if I had been able to see the police lights. Just one example out of a couple year’s worth of examples.

76

So what? I think you just want to be ahead of ‘everyone else’.
Ain’t gonna happen.

This from a person that took a car on a 105 mph joy ride. How well did you know that Subaru?

I do not presuppose that you are a good driver. As a matter of fact, I believe that everyone in the world is a bad driver. Keeps me safe from people that like to ‘test drive’ Subarus.

Then your reactions, or your car’s are not quick enough. Learn to drive or get a different car.

77

oops,

It was blankx with the 105 mph Subaru joy ride. Sorry Pirate.

Gotta go. Pipes froze on the house last night. Been surfing, waiting for the heat tape to take hold. Sounds like the pump just kicked in.

Showers for everyone!

Alpine

78

Most defensive driving courses suggest a minimum safe following distance of 2 seconds to give you time to recognize and respond to an emergency situation. I can and do respond to those situations within that time frame, so with all due respect to your suggestion that I learn to drive, you are way out of line. My point is that if I can see well ahead, I can respond to potential incidents before they happen, which makes for safer driving for everyone. If my only option on the road is to react to already dangerous situations, my options are immediately limited to emergency measures, such as panic stopping, which will likely cause an emergency situation for someone else, which will likely result in an emergency situation for someone else, etc… Again, if I can see the traffic in front of me, rather than just a bumper and some privacy glass, I can make adjustments to avoid any potential problems, which will certainly reduce the number of problems I create for other drivers. This does not require me to be at the front of the pack. It does require me to be able to see around at least some of the vehicles in front of me. Does this not make sense to you?

BTW, thank you for your correction on the Subaru thing.

79

The wrong reasons? It serves my purposes and looks cool are the wrong reasons? Sorry, I must disagree, and I believe it’s a tad arrogant to tell someone he’s buying a car for the wrong reasons, unless, say, he wants something that gets excellent mileage and thinks a Ferrari F-355 fits the bill. The “right reasons” are basically anything that satisfies the criterion “I like this car”.

Jeff

80

Jeff.

Sorry.

Don’t really care why you may purchase an SUV or a SEMI for that matter. It’s none of my business.

Hell, I’m tryin to rebuild an old motorcycle cause I think the thing is cooler than frozen CO2.

That’s the point I guess.

I like to make my own choices. The anti-SUV group would like to make them for me.