# The Swan (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 8, 2004, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909 "2004-04-08T06:01:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mauvaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mauvaise/32/11084_2.png) [@Mauvaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mauvaise)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909/41 "2004-04-10T17:12:39Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Women who put a little bit of care into their appearance look better. Look better to you. What I’m saying is that (thankfully) not every man thinks a woman looks better with make up. Nor do they think that if she doesn’t wear make up, or always “dress up a little” she’s a “dishrag” (to use your word from earlier in this thread) who doesn’t put any care into her appearance. Caring more about what’s on the inside is not an attitude that deserves to be mocked or looked down on. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909/42 "2004-04-10T17:13:55Z")
How about I tell you what I do. I shave every morning, I make an effort for it to be a very close shave, because I look better with a close shave. I shower daily. I get my hair cut every two weeks. I try to watch what I eat, though I’m a little lax in the exercise department. Business casual is the dress code for work. I generally wear khakis and sport shirts. The sport shirts are of a variety that don’t need pressing, so they always look fresh and unwrinkled, as do the khakis. I won’t make any magazine covers, but I don’t look too bad, either. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909/43 "2004-04-10T17:14:12Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Mrs. Moto and I have twins, and she still finds time to fix her hair, put on makeup, dress up a little, and look very, very nice. There really is no excuse. Um … you wouldn’t be related to [Mark Serlin](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php?userid=2940) by any chance, would you? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909/44 "2004-04-10T17:25:16Z")
> [@Mauvaise](#): > > Look better to you. > > What I’m saying is that (thankfully) not every man thinks a woman looks better with make up. Nor do they think that if she doesn’t wear make up, or always “dress up a little” she’s a “dishrag” (to use your word from earlier in this thread) who doesn’t put any care into her appearance. Caring more about what’s on the inside is not an attitude that deserves to be mocked or looked down on. The dishrag comment was in refrence to their personalities. Their “inside”, if you will. Which I didn’t find particularly attractive. And if you think a woman looks better wothout makeup, that’s fine. That is not my point at all. My point, really, is that these women thought they were ugly. These thoughts ruined their self-esteem to the point that they neglected their appearance. It became a self-fulfilling prophesy. ---
**Author:** ![Mauvaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mauvaise/32/11084_2.png) [@Mauvaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mauvaise)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909/45 "2004-04-10T18:07:41Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > My point, really, is that these women thought they were ugly. These thoughts ruined their self-esteem to the point that they neglected their appearance. And my point is their self-esteem was ruined because of the attitude this show is fostering: that they aren’t good enough to be considered attractive without plastic surgery, make up, new clothes, working out three hours a day, etc. It’s sick and wrong and, unfortunately, not new. We grow up being taught that who we are isn’t good enough and needs improvement. There’s face creams, and make up, and hair products, and diets, and exercise stuff, and the list is figgin’ endless. All designed to “ehance” and “improve” and “change” our looks - the clear message being that we _need_ that enhancement and improvement, as though the Us we are when we roll out of bed in the morning is unfinished, or less than, flawed. It’s to the point that a huge number of women actually believe they look hideous without make up. That they would deserve to be derided if they went out in public without “their face on”. And god forbid some of us decide that we aren’t going to buy into that crap. That we actually think we look good the way we are, without makeup, or a perfect coif, and designer clothes. What is the reaction? We are looked down on - we don’t care about ourselves, obviously, or we would wear make up and spend three hours styling our hair, etc. I mean, there’s just no excuse. The whole thing leaves a sour taste in my mouth and makes me very sad. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909/46 "2004-04-10T18:18:44Z")
I can’t say I totally disagree here, **Mauvaise**. Look at what I’ve said in this thread from the beginning, and you’ll see that I said that the women on the show would have looked fine if they’d done more traditional things for their appearance, like a nicer hairstyle or better exercise. This would have made a world of difference, too, in their self-esteem, without surgery. If you feel American society places too much emphasis on appearance, and this show is a symptom of this, say so. Please don’t use me as a scapegoat, because my comments on this subject have been quite mild. ---
**Author:** ![Mauvaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mauvaise/32/11084_2.png) [@Mauvaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mauvaise)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909/47 "2004-04-10T19:27:12Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > If you feel American society places too much emphasis on appearance, and this show is a symptom of this, say so. Please don’t use me as a scapegoat, because my comments on this subject have been quite mild. I’m not using you as a scapegoat. And I don’t consider > [@](#): > > …she still finds time to fix her hair, put on makeup, dress up a little, and look very, very nice. There really is no excuse. a mild comment. I think it’s a perfect example about what I think is wrong with the mentality of our society and the emphasis put on appearance. But you don’t and that’s fine, I’m truly not interested in going in circles with you. ---
**Author:** ![pokey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ebca7d/32.png) [@pokey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pokey)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909/48 "2004-04-10T20:00:17Z")
You know nobody’s self esteem is ruined by some external attitude about looks. If someone has self esteem, they like and accept themselves regardless of what anyone else thinks. That’s the rule about self esteem. It doesn’t mean they don’t care about their looks. They can still have their own opinions about what looks good and how far they’re willing to go to be pleased with their looks. It’s different for everyone. I don’t care a lot about looks but I like my looks. I wear makeup and choose my clothes to look a way that I like, but if I was forced to wear a uniform and stop wearing makeup I’d feel the same way about myself. Personally I love the makeover shows. I love the fact that people can look any way they choose to look. I mean, I don’t think I’ve ever used “ugly” as an insult in my life because I don’t think anyone has to look any particular way, but that doesn’t stop me from having ideas about what looks good and admiring it when I see it in myself and others. I mean, I admire nice penmanship very much but it doesn’t factor into how I feel about someone. I don’t beat myself up for having ugly handwriting and it’s not a major source of my self esteem. But I do like to practice it and try to make it prettier. Same goes for looks. When people think self esteem has something to do with liking the way you look, they’re problem is that they don’t know what self esteem is so they don’t know how to get it. If you removed all the beauty myth from our culture, they’d fixate on some other bullshit as the secret to happiness. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2004, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909/49 "2004-04-11T04:39:31Z")
My own lady wife is quite attractive, to me. First thing in the morning, last thing at night, fresh out of the shower or after 3 days camping with no running water… she’s beautiful. But towards the end of last year, she was stressed, and depressed, and it showed. She stopped doing makeup, she stopped doing anything besides putting a scrunchy in her hair, she stopped caring about how her clothes looked out side of clean. After a few weeks of this, we sat down and talked. She ended up crying, and admitted that she hated the way she looked, and couldn’t for the life of her figure out why I still wanted to be near her, or anything. I held her, and let her finish crying, and we talked. We talked for a few hours, and at the end of it, she said she would work (with my help) on the issues that had come up. She also said she would start to take better care of herself again, so as to make herself look better (for her) and hopefully that would make her feel better… She’s doing great now. And outside of cleaning days, she usually looks like a Million Bucks… at least to me. This may be what the downtrodden **Mr. Moto** was trying to get at. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2004, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909/50 "2004-04-11T06:49:07Z")
> [@pokey](#): > > I mean, I admire nice penmanship very much but it doesn’t factor into how I feel about someone. Well, it does for me! If you can’t print lowercase letters at their correct relative heights or put a consistent slant on each letter when you write in cursive, you’re obviously a worthless waste of skin who deserves eternal torment in a lake of fire. I wanna see a version of _The Swan_ where they give people corrective surgery to fix the awkward angle at which they hold a pen, and to put silicone implants into the writing callous on the index side of their middle fingers to make 'em bigger. (Hubba hubba, get a load of the callous on **that** hottie! She can dot my i’s and cross my t’s any time she wants!) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909/51 "2004-04-11T15:34:21Z")
Dead on, **Tristan**. I’m happy your wife feels better. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909/52 "2004-04-13T03:26:15Z")
It was on again tonight. The contestants, once more, were perfectly pleasant looking women with zero self-esteem. Christina even was contemplating divorce, because she felt ugly and unattractive. Her husband, as opposed to last week, didn’t appear to be a jerk. Christina was an absolute stunner at the end, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![audiobottle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@audiobottle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audiobottle)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909/53 "2004-04-13T04:17:14Z")
I don’t know know if it was the makeup or what, but Christina looked like she went from having Lation features to Arab features. I also think that both of them went way overboard in the boob department. I only caught bits and pieces of it though; what is the deal with this pageant thing? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909/54 "2004-04-13T05:19:12Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Christina even was contemplating divorce, because she felt ugly and unattractive. Her husband, as opposed to last week, didn’t appear to be a jerk. However, **just** like Kelly last week, Christina didn’t want to be “intimate” with her husband very often because she “didn’t feel sexy.” Ladies? Here’s a clue. If your beau wants to boink, it generally means he’s attracted to you. If you continually turn him down, he might start to feel that you’re not interested in **him** – and even if he doesn’t feel that way, he still craves intimacy, and may start to look elsewere. **Then** where’s your self-esteem gonna be? ---
**Author:** ![Batsinma\_Belfry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@Batsinma\_Belfry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batsinma_Belfry)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909/55 "2004-04-13T05:52:32Z")
The blonde one went from looking like a slightly masculine looking woman to a slightly feminine looking drag queen. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909/56 "2004-04-13T15:25:15Z")
I wondered about the blonde Christy’s “transformation” myself. They were supposed to be turning these ladies into beauty-pageant contestants. Why didn’t they put at least a **little** bit of curl or wave in her hair? Against that face of hers, straight hair makes her look like Tonya Harding, not Miss America. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909/57 "2004-04-13T18:42:23Z")
And if these women are really supposed to be “ugly ducklings”, why do they all have boyfriends or husbands? Why don’t they go after the women who are **so** unattractive and/or have **such** low self-esteem that they can’t get a boyfriend? Seriously, what do you think their current selections do for those of us in the audience who are mateless? “These women are supposed to be bottom-of-the-barrel ugly ducklings, yet even **they** have acquired mates! How much more of a loser **I** must be!” ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909/58 "2004-04-13T20:10:21Z")
> [@hillbilly queen](#): > > The blonde one went from looking like a slightly masculine looking woman to a slightly feminine looking drag queen. Heh, my thoughts exactly. But the other one turned out beautifully. ---
**Author:** ![Mottpot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Mottpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mottpot)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909/59 "2004-04-13T21:48:14Z")
Both of these women had children around the 3-5 age. What kind of effect do you think it has on a child to have mommy gone for 3 months, then see mommy again, but wait. . . . that’s not my mommy! ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2004, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909/60 "2004-04-14T23:33:28Z")
True – when they brought in Christy’s husband and her baby at the end, her baby didn’t seem to recognize her. (Probably partly because the stage makeup and new clothes masked her natural scent, but still…) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swan-spoilers/238909.md?page=4)