# The Swiftvets: Lying Hounds or Treacherous Curs? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 15, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330 "2004-10-15T05:14:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330/21 "2004-10-15T22:33:09Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Please tell me my reading comprehension skills have fled me! I read it as a news organization sitting on presumably damning evidence of malfeasance by the President of the United States and/or his administration that led to WAR is waiting till AFTER the election to report it because it might influence the election??? > > So, the American public is meant to be kept in the dark and possibly re-elect a criminal or at least someone who is criminally stupid so as to be stuck with the guy for another 4 years??? Damn that liberal media! > [@New Iskander](#): > > rjung, scut, run along now! Given the kind of [incoherent OPs](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=281105) you’ve been writing lately, methinks you’ve reached your limit already. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330/22 "2004-10-15T23:00:53Z")
In recognition of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, I propose that we act charitably and permit freind **Isky** to bask in our presence and, perhaps, gain a bit of perspective. Naturally, this precludes anyone extorting his lunch money. Yes, **rjung** , I’m looking at you… ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330/23 "2004-10-16T00:49:15Z")
I suggest a reasonable compromise: the Swifties are lying hounds AND they’re treacherous curs. Now, wasn’t that easy? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330/24 "2004-10-16T02:27:13Z")
I must miss so much in my reading of SDMB. I didn’t realize until the excellent PBS Frontline piece that **cichlidiot** mentioned that Swiftboat Vet **O’Neil** had been brought in by Nixon for the express purpose of destroying Kerry. O’Neil denies it, of course, which pretty well verifies it. (Okay, Charlies Colson’s diary actually indicated that O’Neil was brought in for that reason. Colson is also the one who made up Nixon’s famous so-called “enemies list.”) Why would anyone _dream_ of having any faith in someone brought in by **Nixon** for the express purpose of destroying the reputation of someone? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330/25 "2004-10-16T02:42:20Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Why would anyone _dream_ of having any faith in someone brought in by **Nixon** for the express purpose of destroying the reputation of someone? Now, now, now, friend **Zoe**! For the same reason that some people have faith in the tripe posted at [moveon.org](http://moveon.org). Swifties, moveon: Different sides of the same coin, if you ask me. But nobody did. 😛 Y’all may now return to your orgy of Bush bashing. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330/26 "2004-10-16T02:46:16Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Why would anyone _dream_ of having any faith in someone brought in by **Nixon** for the express purpose of destroying the reputation of someone? Do not despair, I am [almost] sure those two well-known and esteemed gentlemen, **Sam** and **Scylla** , the SDMB’s very own direct connection to the highly regarded Whack-A-Boaters fraternity, will be along shortly to provide you with a thoroughly logical answer to your query. Or maybe not. Just in case, don’t wait standing. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330/27 "2004-10-16T03:44:36Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I must miss so much in my reading of SDMB. I didn’t realize until the excellent PBS Frontline piece that **cichlidiot** mentioned that Swiftboat Vet **O’Neil** had been brought in by Nixon for the express purpose of destroying Kerry. O’Neil denies it, of course, which pretty well verifies it. (Okay, Charlies Colson’s diary actually indicated that O’Neil was brought in for that reason. Colson is also the one who made up Nixon’s famous so-called “enemies list.”) > > Why would anyone _dream_ of having any faith in someone brought in by **Nixon** for the express purpose of destroying the reputation of someone? Not only that but it’s on [tape](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4534613/). My favorite part is when Haldeman tells Nixon that O’Neill “…isn’t the man that Kerry is.” ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330/28 "2004-10-16T04:07:56Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > Now, now, now, friend **Zoe**! For the same reason that some people have faith in the tripe posted at [moveon.org](http://moveon.org). Swifties, moveon: Different sides of the same coin, if you ask me. But nobody did. 😛 Y’all may now return to your orgy of Bush bashing. If you’d share some of what you’re smoking, I’d appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330/29 "2004-10-16T04:25:12Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > If you’d share some of what you’re smoking, I’d appreciate it. If I were smoking or drinking anything with a pleasant effect, I’d be glad to share it with you. However, you’re not likely to catch me spoiling good chemicals by reading or posting in a political thread. I only go to this type thread when I’m already in a foul mood. Catch me in MPSIMS sometime and we’ll kill a bottle of Crown Royal. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330/30 "2004-10-16T04:34:38Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > If you’d share some of what you’re smoking, I’d appreciate it. Exactly what the fuck is your problem, **Mockingbird**? You said the same thing to me when I said (in a different thread) that Limbaugh/Hannity were just as bad as Franken/Garafolo. Enough with your drive-by, contentless, bitchy sniping. I know this isn’t GD but put up or shut up. Haj ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330/31 "2004-10-16T06:44:21Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Exactly what the fuck is your problem, **Mockingbird**? You said the same thing to me when I said (in a different thread) that Limbaugh/Hannity were just as bad as Franken/Garafolo. > > Enough with your drive-by, contentless, bitchy sniping. I know this isn’t GD but put up or shut up. > > Haj Stop whining and deal. If you think you’ve been sniped at, you have a skin so thin that I’m shocked a 20 watt bulb doesn’t sunburn you. If you don’t want to be called on your bullshit dishonest analogies, stop making them you fucking tool. ---
**Author:** ![cichlidiot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f9b8f/32.png) [@cichlidiot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cichlidiot)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330/32 "2004-10-16T08:16:53Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > …the first thing that came to my mind was that he was referencing and taking a slight dig at the whole CBS scandal – and in particular, the alledgedly damaging forged documents report that has been withheld because of it. Ahh, I didn’t think of that, I think you’re probably right. Interesting link, thank you. > [@Zoe](#): > > I didn’t realize until the excellent PBS Frontline piece that cichlidiot mentioned that Swiftboat Vet O’Neil had been brought in by Nixon for the express purpose of destroying Kerry. I didn’t either, **Zoe**. I found a [transcript](http://www.seanrobins.com/kerry/kerry_1971_06_30_Dick_Cavett.htm) from the debate between the two on Dick Cavett, which was referenced in the Frontline piece. The part I remember being aired on Frontline: > [@](#): > > MR. O’NEILL: [Unintelligible] John. Can you tell me about any war crimes that occurred in that unit, Coastal Division 11? And a second question: Why didn’t you attempt to get out of the unit or submit a request when you were there if you saw anything that shocked a normal man? > > MR. KERRY: We – Well, I’ll come back to the question. > > MR. O’NEILL: I’d like you to answer that question, if you would. You obviously are quite good on the polished rhetoric, but I did serve in the same place you did, and not for four months but for 18 months, and I never saw anything, and I’d like you to tell me about the war crimes you saw committed there, and also why you didn’t do something about them, although [unintelligible]. > > MR. KERRY: Did you serve in a free fire zone? > > MR. O’NEILL: I certainly did serve in a free fire zone. > > MR. KERRY: [Reading] “Free fire zone, in which we kill anything that moves – man, woman or child. This practice suspends the distinction between combatant and non-combatant and contravenes Geneva Convention Article 3.1.” > > MR. O’NEILL: Where is that from, John? > > MR. KERRY: Geneva Conventions. You’ve heard about the Geneva Conventions. :::holding up transcript for camera and pointing::: 😛 In all seriousness the transcript isn’t as one sided as the part I quoted, but it was interesting for me to see a bit more about what was going on back then, and look for motivations behind what the two are saying today. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330/33 "2004-10-16T15:09:31Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > Stop whining and deal. > > If you think you’ve been sniped at, you have a skin so thin that I’m shocked a 20 watt bulb doesn’t sunburn you. > > If you don’t want to be called on your bullshit dishonest analogies, stop making them you fucking tool. I’m not whining and you didn’t hurt my feelings. I felt my analogy had merit and I explained why. So did **John**. You think we’re full of shit, fair enough. You can either explain why or keep acting like a dickhead. The choice is yours. Maybe we’ll like actually learn something. How was I being dishonest? That is my honest opinion. Show me where I’m wrong. By the way, I’m a Libertarian who is voting for Kerry. There is one parisan tool here and it isn’t me. Care to try again bucko? Haj ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330/34 "2004-10-16T15:12:04Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > There is one parisan tool here and it isn’t me. Care to try again bucko? That was supposed to be _partisan_ tool. I am not accusing you of being French 😛 Haj ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330/35 "2004-10-16T15:28:23Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > That was supposed to be _partisan_ tool. I am not accusing you of being French 😛 > > Haj Why not accuse me of being French? I have little doubt that in the past you were eating freedom fries, freedom toast, and fucking a low priced hooker with a freedom tickler while calling her Mommy. There is more than one partisan tool here, you whiny little bitch, and all of you are more content to parrot lies about a good man to keep a lying scumbag in office. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330/36 "2004-10-16T15:53:35Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > Why not accuse me of being French? I have little doubt that in the past you were eating freedom fries, freedom toast, and fucking a low priced hooker with a freedom tickler while calling her Mommy. Now that’s just slander. I hate Bush. I have never voted for a Republican for President and that goes back to Reagan. The “freedom” fry thing was as moronic as it gets. Did you get the part where I said I was voting for Kerry? I’ll give you one more honest chance and if you still want to reply with High School insults, I’m done with you. Actually, the colorful insults are fine so long as you also add some actual content. I think that radio by Limbaugh/Hannity and their ilk is just as bad as radio by Franken/Garofalo and theirs. Here is why: annoyingly unfunny parodies, strawman arguments, taking quotes out of context to prove points and demonization of the opposition. By the way, I’ve worked too hard and come too far in like to waste my time on _low cost_ hookers and if it’s anything, they’re calling me Daddy. Haj ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330/37 "2004-10-16T16:44:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, there’s to be, or has been, an ABC _Nightline_ report tonight about some of the SwiftVet allegations and thier investigations thereof. (It may have been on already, I don’t know, I live in Minneapolis. Winter is coming, and we dare not waste precious whale blubber to power the TV…) It’s people like you who are causing the demise of the Whale Blubber Cartel in Alaska. We rely heavily on exports to places like MSP to support…er…something important, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330/38 "2004-10-16T20:57:02Z")
Minor clarification, to no purpose but scruples… I allowed an inference to stand that is subject to revision, i.e., that the witnesses above mentioned were visited previously by another veteran, who announced himself as a swift boat veteran, and said veteran left after trying to get the local witnesses to make statements at variance with the facts. Over at _Washington Monthly_, that guy who used to be _Calpundit_, has been contacted by another veteran who arranges tours in Viet Nam for vets. He says that he was in the village about the time mentioned, and may very well have been the man that the villager referred to, though he had no cameraman and did not solicit testimony. So - the inference that a Swiftvet had been there and attempted to suborn the locals is in doubt (thought, of course, it never could have been proven anyway). Make of it what you will. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2004, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330/39 "2004-10-17T19:13:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Over at _Washington Monthly_, that guy who used to be _Calpundit_, has been contacted by another veteran who arranges tours in Viet Nam for vets. He says that he was in the village about the time mentioned, and may very well have been the man that the villager referred to, though he had no cameraman and did not solicit testimony. > > So - the inference that a Swiftvet had been there and attempted to suborn the locals is in doubt (thought, of course, it never could have been proven anyway). Make of it what you will. Why are you starting to go soft on them? Some white guy shows up (possibly around the same time) without a cameraman and without trying to elicit testimony? Yet what the people there remember is some white guy accompanied with a cameraman trying to elicit testimon… Besides the “some guy” part there’s no reason to believe they were the same person. -Joe, rock hard [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-swiftvets-lying-hounds-or-treacherous-curs/269330.md?page=1)