# The Sword **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 13, 2004, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sword/233992 "2004-03-13T00:26:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Quint\_Essence](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/54ee81/32.png) [@Quint\_Essence](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint_Essence)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2004, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sword/233992/61 "2004-03-18T04:33:06Z")
> [@](#): > > But you lose a point for ‘doth’. seems fair, although in fairness I put that in specifically because it was against the rules. 🙂 I get in more trouble for stuff like that… ---
**Author:** ![DevilDan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e495f1/32.png) [@DevilDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DevilDan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2004, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sword/233992/62 "2004-03-18T06:23:10Z")
Excellent Quint, but I cringe every time I see “alas.” How about sword limerics (come on, we’ve yet to explore the phallic symbologies of a sword)? Yust kidding. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2004, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sword/233992/63 "2004-03-18T07:03:24Z")
Whoa, whoa. A full-size steel longsword weighing in at 2.5 pounds? Can that possibly be correct? ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2004, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sword/233992/64 "2004-03-18T13:23:50Z")
Yes, that’s correct. Arming swords varied in weight in between 2 to 3.5 lbs. Longswords from about 2.5 to 4 pounds (most weighing closer to 3.5 pounds). The ‘true’ two-handers of the renaissance weighed anywhere from 5 to 8 lbs, but their balance and handling are still nothing close to the hollywood (or _some_ SCA or theatrical) representations of these weapons as cumbersome, unwieldly hunks of steel. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sword/233992/65 "2004-03-18T13:43:34Z")
> [@Quint Essence](#): > > seems fair, although in fairness I put that in specifically because it was against the rules. 🙂 I get in more trouble for stuff like that… Oh, wanna play, do ya? [sits back, stretches fingers out, wiggles them around a bit for a warm up, and _pounces_ on the keyboard] You can have your point back for ‘doth’ for using the correct verb of an inflected compound verb. I do like the use of ‘bolt’ and ‘dolt’, which symbolically imbues the inanimate object with the characteristics of its user. But Punctuation: a comma is needed in the first line after ‘fair warrior’; punctuation is required at the end of the first line; no comma is needed in the third line after ‘bolt’; punctuation is required at the end of the third line; a comma is needed in the fifth line before ‘my friend’; an apostraphe is needed in the final line in ‘anyones’ [sic]. Futhermore, such a classical form as the sonnet should retain the convention of capitalizing the first word in each line. Form: A sonnet has fourteen lines, not six. The number of syllables in each line (11, 13, 11, 9, 12, 11) varies for no particular effect; shorter lines in either the penultimate or final couplet could be used for emphasis. While variation from the classic iambic pentameter is, of course, allowed, there is no consistency in the meter, and the fluctuations do not emphasize any particular words or themes. How about [alterations in bold] Alas, fair warrior\*\*,\*\* your doom has arrived\*\*,\*\* **Neither** sword **nor** skilled arrow fairly survived\*\*,\*\* **I** nstead a cruel bolt, from a skilless young lad\*\*.\*\* **How does this low** dolt\*\* win in battle? He had\*\* **A** crossbow\*\*,\*\* my friend, **to alone** in the land **Put** the power of death in anyone\*\*' **s hand**.\*\* [Sits back, blows gently on finger-tips, and lights a cigarette.] No, I’m not going to try to write eight more lines; I can’t write poetry. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sword/233992/66 "2004-03-18T18:24:15Z")
Note concerning the weight of swords: If you’ve ever been to a Renaissance Fair and seen swords for sale, this may have given you an unrealistic idea of their weight. For some reason, some Fair merchants sell swords that are about twice as heavy as they should be. (Not all Fair merchants, of course; actually, I’ve got a specific one in mind.) About 3 pounds feels about right. (I’ve fought in the SCA for 23 years – yes, that’s with rattan weapons, but I’ve also done pell work with real swords.) > [@](#): > > On an episode of Battlefield Detectives (on the History Channel), some guys decided to investigate just what it was about the Battle of Agincourt that caused the English to win despite being heavily outnumbered. Traditional wisdom has it that the English longbowmen mowed down the French with a hail of arrows. However, the detectives’ experiments with the armaments of the time determined that the iron arrowheads of the time were too soft to penetrate the steel body-armor worn by the French. Eventually, they determined that it was a combination of the metal boots the French were wearing (which got stuck in the mud much more easily than the cloth shoes the English troops were wearing), and the fact that the French would have had to charge toward the English down a rapidly-narrowing corridor of land, which resulted in many of them getting trampled by one another. I haven’t seen that show, but it sounds like BS to me. “Metal boots”? What the hell are they talking about? Presumably the French knights wore steel sabatons, but they were on horseback. According to Jehan de Wavrin, a French knight who wrote a first-hand account of the battle, the English archers essentially won the battle by supplying such a shower of arrows that the French could not coordinate a sustained charge (and “many of the French were disabled and wounded by the arrows”), and by wounding many of the horses, making them unmanageable. It’s true that the French had to proceed down a narrow, muddy path; really poor choice of ground, and the French were ridiculously jammed together. But if the English hadn’t had their longbowmen, I think the French would have won the day with heavy losses, successfully repelling the foreign invaders, capturing or killing Henry V, and putting an end to the ridiculous English claims to the crown of France. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Purl_McKnittington)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sword/233992/67 "2004-03-19T07:54:23Z")
Mock arrow doth in rapid flight Across the sanguine battlefield, Launched forth by some wretched mite, Despatch a knight to Charon seal’d. O days full ripe, O days full sweet, 'Neath our tattered banner laid. Those fears we sought, we now will meet; Sweet Mary, walk close in shade. How is it now, that you can tell Our stories, all in vellum sere? Know you not that we made hell In all the acts you hold so dear? That fair young folk join in our game, O damn the day the crossbow came. \*I’m probably going to get a negative score for archaic terms, as well as destroyed iambic pentameter, since my iambs aren’t perfect, and it sure as shooting isn’t pentameter. Also, it’s all very melodramatic, but not shabby for A) the first poem I’ve written in four years, B) a half-hour sonnet, and C) my first sonnet ever. Oh, yes, I will regret this later. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sword/233992/68 "2004-03-19T13:31:36Z")
> [@lillalette](#): > > Mock arrow doth in rapid flight > Across the sanguine battlefield, > Launched forth by some wretched mite, > Despatch a knight to Charon seal’d. > > O days full ripe, O days full sweet, > 'Neath our tattered banner laid. > Those fears we sought, we now will meet; > Sweet Mary, walk close in shade. > > How is it now, that you can tell > Our stories, all in vellum sere? > Know you not that we made hell > In all the acts you hold so dear? > > That fair young folk join in our game, > O damn the day the crossbow came. I’m impressed. ‘Across the sanguine battlefield’ has good rhythm, very much like natural speech. In fact, you could move it to the first line (it reads a bit more naturally than ‘Mock arrow …’), go with an ‘abba’ scheme in the first two stanzas, switch to ‘abab’ for a little emphasis in the third. But, yeah, I am not letting you slide on ‘doth’; ‘does’ scans the same way. Now, if ‘doth’ and ‘across’ had lined up for a non-ending rhyme, I would have had to let it go. And the contraction in ‘seal’d’ is unnecessary; no one says ‘seal-_ed_’ anymore. And 'Neath loses a point; in this case, it actually interfers with the rhythm; every other line in the quartets has an unaccented first syllable. Just change ‘walk’ in the eighth line. ?‘Hold us’? You get a B+; you would have an A-, but I know that you can do better. (I still haven’t forgiven a high-school teacher that did that to me once.) I am going to miss this place. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sword/233992/69 "2004-03-19T14:58:34Z")
> [@j66](#): > > I am going to miss this place. Are you leaving **j66**? ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sword/233992/70 "2004-03-19T15:27:00Z")
If I don’t get a job before the board goes pay-to-post. And things are looking pretty bleak. I can’t even find a service job. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sword/233992/71 "2004-03-19T20:57:00Z")
Yeah I’m in pretty much the same boat. Lost my job several months ago and haven’t had any luck yet. I do plan on doing just about anything I can to stay on. The SMDB is just too much fun. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sword/233992/72 "2004-03-19T21:28:33Z")
So when I saw the board was going to pay-to-post I decided I can not join unless I get a job. I keep popping on just to see what’s going on while I cruise the web looking for jobs; I’ve found some … Wait a minute. You don’t have a job? Poem up, honey; you’ve got the time to write one. ---
**Author:** ![Quint\_Essence](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/54ee81/32.png) [@Quint\_Essence](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint_Essence)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sword/233992/73 "2004-03-20T00:19:48Z")
Thats really cool lillalette. I can’t write anything at all like that. For that matter I know next to nothing about poetry, when j66 said “write a sonnet” I didn’t even notice the word “sonnet” and for that matter really didn’t know the rules anyway. 🙂 The only “poetry” I typically write are more along the lines and intent of song lyrics. The Sword was a rare exception. It was never intended as lyrics but for the life of me I can’t remember why I wrote it. Probably inspired by something I read or just extremely bored one day. Having recently found it again I was surprised to find that I liked it. Most old writings of mine that I find like that I tend to snicker at and throw away. As for staying on the SDMB. I have not completly decided yet myself. I am a big proponent of keeping web content, and in particular forums like this, monetarily free as well as being free to speak your mind. I understand that this place costs to run but I also understand that a forum like this with so many regular viewers would have no trouble finding advertisers willing to support that cost. This subscription idea seems more geared at reducing traffic than taking advantage of that traffic. I don’t think I can justify paying for such a limited service. At the very least I would like to see some responsibility taken for the bandwidth/server issues which are a daily annoyance around here. Disenfranchising a bunch of less devoted users does not seem like the right answer to me. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2004, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sword/233992/74 "2004-03-20T02:45:33Z")
You sparked a pretty good thread, Quint. And I hope that if I can stick around you’ll still be here. I really like stylized verse; there is a lot of freedom in being able to do anything one wants as long as one obeys a few rules. Song lyrics have conventions, too, don’t they? Furthermore, the audience can pay more attention to content when the form is standardized, and still appreciated how creativity is encourage by being forced to push the bounds of convention. I think $5 or even $15 dollars is pretty reasonable, but the I agree with some of the suggestions for easier trial terms. It does take a while to get hooked on a board. I don’t even mind paying on principle; one values what one pays for. And I would rather pay that put up with pop-ups. But getting a job comes first. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Purl_McKnittington)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2004, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sword/233992/75 "2004-03-20T07:05:57Z")
Ah, thanks, **j66** and **Quint**. I’ve got all sorts of warm fuzzies now, and warm fuzzies are a very good thing indeed. Almost ironically, **j66** , I just got a paper back from my English instructor on which I’d gotten a B+, because she knew I could do better. 😛 What’re the odds? I cut my poetical teeth on a big anthology of Victorian poets, which was actually one of my mom’s college textbooks, but I’ve since progressed to ee cummings, whom I adore, but would never dream of imitating. I read a lot of Shakespearean stuff, too, so that might explain why I’m so partial to “doth” and things like “seal’d”. I wrote sealed that way because if I didn’t, I’d read it in my mind as seal_ed_ and that would have messed the meter up even more. (Although, to be entirely honest, I blame the “doth” fixation almost entirely on Charles Lutwidge Dodson and that stupid crocodile poem.) I like more formal poems as well. Generally, they’re easier to interpret because they repeat elements and the meter lets the words flow through your mind – or rather march, in some cases. Sonnets are especially easy to interpret, as they often present arguments in the first parts, then resolve it in the end couplet. Like [this one](http://www.sonnets.org/donne.htm#114). [This site](http://www.sp.uconn.edu/~mwh95001/sonnets.html) is an awesome basic guide and has some links to sonnets, though the ones to the University of Toronto don’t direct you to the right page. [This is a good intro to basic poetry terms.](http://sp.uconn.edu/~mwh95001/iambic.html) Regarding the subscription thing, my heart actually sped up when I saw it announced. I thought it would be something like 4.95/month, so I’m relieved that’s for a year. I think I’ll give ice cream up for a few months, which I know I would otherwise spend waaay more than five bucks on. So really, being charged is sort of like the ultimate diet plan for me. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sword/233992/76 "2004-03-21T00:04:01Z")
Thank’s; I love Donne ‘That time of year…’ has been my favorite since I was about 13. [http://www.sonnets.org/shakespeare.htm#073](http://www.sonnets.org/shakespeare.htm#073) I love the Alice poetry; I used recite ‘Jaberwocky’ at the drop of a hat (or, to be honest, the swallow of three drinks), and, be able to give, completely straight-faced, the text definitions for all the nonsense words. Until someone spiked my guns by reciting it back to me _in Afrikaans._ ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Purl_McKnittington)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sword/233992/77 "2004-03-21T20:22:14Z")
I love the SDMB: where else can this sort of exchange over a litle ol’ poem take place? SDMB, je t’aime, je t’adore. My favorite Shakespeare sonnet is [Not marble nor the gilded monuments](http://www.sonnets.org/shakespeare.htm#055). I’m always up for a good love poem with war analogies in it. 🙂 Hee hee. What exactly does mimsy mean? For that matter, what’s a borogrove? I will appreciate that poem just for the beauty of the sound of it. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2004, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sword/233992/78 "2004-03-21T22:07:48Z")
flismy and miserable, of course; I think of dissolute fairies (as in elves, sort of). and borogove is a mimsy animal ok, I have to look it up (I seldom had to get past ‘gimble’, you understand) here we go “Exactly so. Well, then, ‘mimsy’ is flimsy and miserable (there’s another portmanteau for you). And a ‘borogove’ is a thin, shabby-looking bird with its feathers sticking out all round-something like a live mop.” I prefer ‘Not marble nor …’ to ‘Shall I compare thee…’; maybe the latter is just overquoted, but it always struck me as paying more homage to the poem than to the beloved. Maybe that was the point; W.S. was being a bit bitchy. Your favorite has some of the melancholy of ‘Dover Beach’, doesn’t it? I know some dismiss Arnold is treachly, but I like that one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sword/233992.md?page=3)