# The symbolic gesture of a middle finger **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 23, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237 "2008-10-23T18:02:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Grapefruit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@Grapefruit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grapefruit)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/1 "2008-10-23T18:02:52Z")
Where did it originate and how did it come to mean “fuck you”? ---
**Author:** ![SharkB8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/977dab/32.png) [@SharkB8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SharkB8)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/2 "2008-10-23T18:07:49Z")
Maybe because it’s phallic? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/3 "2008-10-23T18:09:11Z")
The first person to seriously suggest the “pluck yew” fable gets hit in the face with a fish. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/4 "2008-10-23T18:12:47Z")
Cecil’s column: [What’s the origin of “the finger”? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1279/whats-the-origin-of-the-finger) ---
**Author:** ![This\_ll\_Do](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/this_ll_do/32/3023_2.png) [@This\_ll\_Do](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_ll_Do)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/5 "2008-10-23T18:19:12Z")
Here’s what I read: “The finger symbolizes the erect penis and the other digits represent the testicles on either side of it. . . . This is one of the oldest of all obscene hand gestures and was particularly popular in ancient Rome, where it was known as the _digitus impudicus_– the ‘indecent finger.’” Morris, Desmond. _Bodyguards_ p. 188 Of course, ol’ Des has been known to make stuff up. I wouldn’t argue with someone who had a better cite. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/6 "2008-10-23T18:49:57Z")
It looks like a penis and balls. And, of course, the French used to draw the strings of their bows with their penises. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/7 "2008-10-23T18:51:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Of course, ol’ Des has been known to make stuff up. I wouldn’t argue with someone who had a better cite. I haven’t known des to make things up – his errors are of omission, not comission. I believe hiom to be right in this case – there are many things thaty bolster that interpretation. But, to be truthful, I don’t myself have a cite for “digitus impudicus”. Morris _should_ have cited it somewhere (he uses it in at least three of his books), but, of course, he doesn’t. Typical Morris omission. Edited to add: Apparently it’s in this book, J.N. Adams’ **Latin Sexual Vocxabulary** : [The Latin Sexual Vocabulary - J. N. Adams - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=GDP9VHGbF1AC&oi=fnd&pg=PR7&dq=%22digitus+impudicus%22&ots=_Rv-PSBy8U&sig=j5_y9mfUloVfXMVcOqR0R1zNfOQ#PPA254,M1) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/8 "2008-10-23T18:59:39Z")
And what’s up with the British using two fingers? Do they have two penises? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/9 "2008-10-23T19:26:21Z")
> [@](#): > > And what’s up with the British using two fingers? Do they have two penises? i think you only have speculation to go on here – I’m not sure what would constitute a definite answer. IIRC, Morris, in one of his first books ( **The Human Zoo** , I think, not **The Naked Ape** , although I might be wrong) speculates quite a bit about the middle finger gesture and related gestures. His suggestion was that the spread fingers indicated a single organ of width equal to the spread – essentially “fuck you with a penis this big!” If you think that’s outrageous, he holds that the Fist-Up-Arm-Bent-At-Elbow-with-hand-slapping-inside-of-the-Elbow signifies “fuck you with a penis the size of my forearm rammed in to the hilt”. Makes sense to me. In any event, I have nothing better to suggest. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/10 "2008-10-23T21:39:00Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > And what’s up with the British using two fingers? Do they have two penises? No, but they have an “arse” which the rest of us apparently don’t. But “pluck yew” notwithstanding, legend has it that when English archers were captured by the French, they’d get their 2 bowstring-drawing fingers chopped off. So demonstrating that these 2 fingers were still intact became a gesture of defiance. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/11 "2008-10-23T21:46:51Z")
One of my professors has written a law review article with a lengthy discussion of the history of the “middle finger” gesture, as well as others with similar meaning. [http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract\_id=982405#](http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=982405#) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/12 "2008-10-23T22:42:13Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > But “pluck yew” notwithstanding, legend has it that when English archers were captured by the French, they’d get their 2 bowstring-drawing fingers chopped off. So demonstrating that these 2 fingers were still intact became a gesture of defiance. Is there anything better than legend to back this up? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/13 "2008-10-23T22:59:52Z")
I read somewhere that Diogenes of Sinope once studied how a man’s temperment changed when he was shown (flipped) the middle finger. For some reason, I credit Diogenes with being the\* father of the bird\*, but I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/14 "2008-10-23T23:21:00Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Is there anything better than legend to back this up? The legend itself is of rather recent origin. I know of no version earlier than the late 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/15 "2008-10-23T23:31:09Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > The legend itself is of rather recent origin. I know of no version earlier than the late 20th century. That’s pretty interesting all by itself. I would have thought you were going to say you knew of no version earlier than October 23, 2008. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/16 "2008-10-23T23:40:53Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > The first person to seriously suggest the “pluck yew” fable gets hit in the face with a fish. I came into this thread just to say that. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/17 "2008-10-23T23:50:58Z")
The finger, or something close to it, comes from 350 or so B.C. \*“Most people, he would say, are so nearly mad that a finger makes all the difference. For if you go along with your middle finger stretched out, some one will think you mad, but, if it’s the little finger, he will not think so” (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, Book 6, Chapter 35). \* [http://www.iep.utm.edu/d/diogsino.htm](http://www.iep.utm.edu/d/diogsino.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazle_Weatherfield)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/18 "2008-10-24T03:56:13Z")
I think it’s sad that we, as a species, are so uncreative that we have to use our own body parts to offend someone. There wouldn’t be such a taboo on our privates or threads like “what should my 2 year old call her vagina,” if we didn’t use these words in a derogatory manner. Are we so stupid that we can’t use regular words to describe our frustruation? I think it’s stupid that fuck, dick, cocksucker, whatever are our “swear words.” Why is this? Wouldn’t you like it if your girlfriend was a cocksucker? Wouldn’t it be good if she would fuck you? Sorry, I’m in a bad mood. I just think that people only swear because they’re so stupid that they can’t win an argument otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/19 "2008-10-24T10:02:12Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > But “pluck yew” notwithstanding, legend has it that when English archers were captured by the French, they’d get their 2 bowstring-drawing fingers chopped off. So demonstrating that these 2 fingers were still intact became a gesture of defiance. I’ve heard this but my gut feeling has always been that the two fingers form the shape of a womans genitalia as seen from the front. So its more likely that you’re calling the man a cunt. Interestingly for many decades I and everyone I knew have used the V sign as a deadly insult but until recently none of us knew the reason WHY it was a deadly insult, just that it was. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/20 "2008-10-24T10:14:53Z")
I believe that the two finger gesture **reversed** was used in WW2 (especially by Winston Churchill\*) to mean ‘V for Victory’. _Since there is danger of confusion between insult and celebration, all English schoolchildren are taught precisely how to do both gestures. (It’s part of the Political Correctness and Sociology curriculum.)_ \*_possibly a ficticious character, who makes a brief appearance in the fine WW2 film ‘The Eagle has landed’…_ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237.md?page=2)