# The symbolic gesture of a middle finger **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 23, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237 "2008-10-23T18:02:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/21 "2008-10-24T12:28:46Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I believe that the two finger gesture **reversed** was used in WW2 (especially by Winston Churchill\*) to mean ‘V for Victory’. And that sign was used to mean “peace” here in the States in the 60s and 70s. (Which may have caused some confusion for our British guests.) ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/22 "2008-10-24T13:23:34Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > The legend itself is of rather recent origin. I know of no version earlier than the late 20th century. There are a few contemporary cites for this. For example: Thomas of Elmham was a scribe who (apparently) noted the content of Henry’s pre-Agincourt speech: his account is in [Gesta Henrici Quinti](http://ul-newton.lib.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=1&ti=1,1&cnt=25&SL=None&search%5Farg=Gesta%20Hinrici%20Quinti&search%5Fcode=FT%2A&PID=syV3B8EwwC5se0nRSx9f_Q9HgHJUx&SEQ=20081024141526&SID=1), and \*Elhami Liber Metricus de Henrico Quinto \*in C.A. Cole (ed.), \*Memorials of Henry the Fifth \*(London 1858). According to British longbow historian Robert Hardy, Elmham records Henry telling his troops of the French boast to cut off the fingers of English archers. You’d need to check the records properly - one of my first posts on SDMB was a link to some more detail, but I think the board has swallowed stuff from 2001 (or it’s still being transferred). ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/23 "2008-10-24T13:53:27Z")
I love that we got to post 13 before someone called it “the bird.” ---
**Author:** ![butler1850](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@butler1850](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butler1850)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/24 "2008-10-24T14:24:15Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > I love that we got to post 13 before someone called it “the bird.” Well, everyone knows about the bird… 🆒 My personal theory, with no science, or learning to back it up is as follows… Before toilet paper, back in the poop flinging monkey days of our evolution, we used our hand to wipe our backside. As I’m pissed off if someone interrupts my morning constitutional, if someone was to interrupt said constitutional, I might want to throw some poop at them. As I’ve just been using my hand to clean off the poop, and as my middle finger is longest, it’s the most likely to have the aforementioned poop on it. I’d then simply “flick” the middle finger out towards him, hopefully, giving him a nice little bit of poop squarely flicked to the tip of his nose. I’m sure some scientist, or historian will come along with their “proven theory”, but I’m still not going to believe them. That’s my story, and I’m flicking to it. ---
**Author:** ![Grapefruit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@Grapefruit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grapefruit)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/25 "2008-10-24T22:55:13Z")
Thanks for the responses. I looked at the abstract for the academic article and had to stifle a giggle at the term “fuck finger”. Heh. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/26 "2008-10-24T23:15:05Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > According to British longbow historian Robert Hardy, Elmham records Henry telling his troops of the French boast to cut off the fingers of English archers. > > You’d need to check the records properly - one of my first posts on SDMB was a link to some more detail, but I think the board has swallowed stuff from 2001 (or it’s still being transferred). Nope. It’s still available. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=2479372&postcount=12](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=2479372&postcount=12) which was in the previous thread about this same topic. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=136975&highlight=archers](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=136975&highlight=archers) ---
**Author:** ![Danalan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@Danalan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danalan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237/27 "2008-10-24T23:27:05Z")
I don’t have anything to add to the thread, except that I have a blog that is, shall I say – on-topic? [For Illustrative Purposes](http://bitterrootbrakes.blogspot.com). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-symbolic-gesture-of-a-middle-finger/469237.md?page=1)