# The system worked **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 29, 2009, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908 "2009-12-29T15:02:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/181 "2009-12-31T18:48:24Z")
Couldn’t we just ban air travel and transport altogether? I mean sure it would add expense and inconvenience to our lives, but at least no planes will aspolded then. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/182 "2009-12-31T18:53:06Z")
So, if I fly from, say, West Palm Beach, FL to Tampa, FL, they I should be thoroughly searched at a TSA security checkpoint as it is a Matter of National Security After 9/11. But we can let a plane fly from Terroristville, Bumfuckistan with a connection in Amsterdam, with a final destination in New York or Washington and just trust on the goodness of Bumfuckistan airport security to do a good job? When will they really admit that it’s just for show. I will vote for the first politician who admits that it is just for show. I don’t care what party. Just be honest with me. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/183 "2009-12-31T18:53:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Dem chickenhawks? We _are_ in Bizarro World. Let’s just go with full public strip searches with every orifice speculum’d and inspected. There you go. Problem fucking solved. Let’s quit with the half-measure bullshit. Shit or get off the pot. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/184 "2009-12-31T19:05:41Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > So, if I fly from, say, West Palm Beach, FL to Tampa, FL, they I should be thoroughly searched at a TSA security checkpoint as it is a Matter of National Security After 9/11. But we can let a plane fly from Terroristville, Bumfuckistan with a connection in Amsterdam, with a final destination in New York or Washington and just trust on the goodness of Bumfuckistan airport security to do a good job? Bumfuckistan airport security probably isn’t any more incompetent than the TSA. Seriously, though, what do you want them to do? Make all inbound flights stop in the Azores for screening? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/185 "2009-12-31T21:30:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Seriously, though, what do you want them to do? Make all inbound flights stop in the Azores for screening? No. I want them to admit that this whole thing is a charade. I am tired of having to take off my shoes to fly on a commercial airplane. I think it is ridiculous that I have to put my shampoo in a separate plastic bag to carry it on a plane. White people gleefully strip naked for security in this country while we allow planes from third world terrorist shithole countries to fly into airports here without any oversight from the US or its allies. It is for our own amusement. We feel that since WE have to have our carry-on luggage inspected for cigarette lighters that we are safe on an airplane. We are not. It’s time to grow up and realize the dangerous world we live in. And unfortunately that will, more times than not, be the foreign looking person next to you. Sad that we have to take that step. We would like to think that we will live in a colorblind/racially-blind world, and we don’t. But is this security a silly game or about real safety? If it is about real safety, then we need to quit looking at old grandmothers in wheelchairs and look at the young Muslim men. When old grandmothers start pulling bombs out of their wheelchair enabled colostomy bags, I will be the first proponent for screening them harsher. Until then, it’s young Muslim/Arabic men. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/186 "2009-12-31T21:40:32Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > If it is about real safety, then we need to quit looking at old grandmothers in wheelchairs and look at the young Muslim men. You mean like John Walker Lindh or Richard Ried, right? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/187 "2010-01-01T00:35:21Z")
Well, Lindh and Reid _were_ Muslims. My problem with profiling is that I look like a might be a Muslim too, and I don’t like being harassed at airports. However, to \*\*jtgain \*\*and anyone else who thinks the TSA doesn’t _already_ practice profiling, I invite you to take a flight in my shoes. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/188 "2010-01-01T01:58:10Z")
Over and over news stations have tested procedures and managed to get fake bombs and real bombs on planes. It is not a new story. We can not make travel perfectly safe. But when something appears to go wrong we can sure bitch. Since 911 nobody has been killed. The incidents have been contained and no damage was done. That sounds like a success to me. ---
**Author:** ![BigBertha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@BigBertha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBertha)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/189 "2010-01-01T07:38:13Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > our system at that time allowed them to have box cutters, told passengers to work with hostage takers, and allowed for the passengers to have access to the cockpit. told norad to stand down… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/190 "2010-01-01T08:34:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > However, to \*\*jtgain \*\*and anyone else who thinks the TSA doesn’t _already_ practice profiling, I invite you to take a flight in my shoes. Why? Are there bombs in 'em? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/191 "2010-01-01T13:46:43Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > That is not safe enough. > We must all be **110%** safe! Bah. If we’re going that far, why can’t we shoot for being 120% safe? That failure to go for an easily achievable 10% gain is exactly why the Dems are preceived as soft on terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/192 "2010-01-01T14:05:27Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > When old grandmothers start pulling bombs out of their wheelchair enabled colostomy bags, I will be the first proponent for screening them harsher. Until then, it’s young Muslim/Arabic men. You, like many others, appear to believe that you can somehow reliably predict behavior on board an airline flight from some detail of dress or physical appearance. You also appear to be buying the absurd canard of the right-wing noise machine that 87-year-old grandmothers are somehow being targeted for secondary screening more often than your notional “young Muslim/Arabic men”. If so, then you are, IMO, a bit of a fool. I point out to you that since the botched Christmas day incident, no doubt many thousands of “young Muslim/Arabic men” have traveled on flights, both domestic and international. Perhaps I missed a news report somewhere, but not a single plane blew up in flight during that period, and not a single person was stopped trying to carry bomb-making materials aboard a plane. So what good is your plan? Apparently you feel it’s perfectly OK to harass and demean thousands of people a day for years on end, in pursuit of an end that at best may increase overall security by a fraction of fraction of a fraction of a percent. And, of course, I’m sure it’s OK in part because you are quite certain you wouldn’t be one of the persons so profiled. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/193 "2010-01-01T15:16:15Z")
Out of interest do we, as in people not from America, get to have OUR armed personnel on inbound flights from the US? You see, that would mean that we’d have to have our own armed personnel at every US airport that does international flights. You going to be OK with that? ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/194 "2010-01-01T15:33:11Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Out of interest do we, as in people not from America, get to have OUR armed personnel on inbound flights from the US? You see, that would mean that we’d have to have our own armed personnel at every US airport that does international flights. You going to be OK with that? Like there’s anything worth blowing up or attacking or stealing outside of America… what are they going to do, blow up a bunch of donkeys in Mexico, or striking workers in France? BFD… :rolleyes: All you people with no sense of humor, chill. That was a joke. Happy New Year! Some really interesting observations, for those interested in adult debate, here > **[Want to get on an airplane? Let's see your scrotum.](https://slate.com/technology/2009/12/want-to-get-on-an-airplane-let-s-see-your-scrotum.html)** > > Let's be blunt: You'll have to start showing your gonads when you go to the airport. This is a conversation about those backscatter machines invading privacy of fliers. I happen to agree with almost everything in this article. For those that care, Saletan is pretty liberal, and lord knows Slate is too, so this is hardly some faux news push-poll type piece. I like this quote especially: > [@](#): > > Another privacy advocate tells the Times: “If there are a hundred tactics and I protect against two of them, I’m not making you safer. If we use full-body scanning, they’re going to do something else.” > > Wrong again. It’s true that if we use the scanners, bombers will change tactics. But that isn’t failure. It’s success. Security is a constant arms race against innovative malefactors. By pursuing them in Afghanistan and Pakistan, you force them to Yemen. By tracking their cell phones, you force them to use couriers. By hunting them with drones in the mountains, you force them into cities. You can’t stop them, but you can cripple them and keep them off balance. In my opinion, as we get more and more machines in place, we can probably throttle back the marshals (but never eliminate them; the threat has to credible to keep terrorists guessing). ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/195 "2010-01-01T18:39:47Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Like there’s anything worth blowing up or attacking or stealing outside of America… what are they going to do, blow up a bunch of donkeys in Mexico, or striking workers in France? BFD… > > :rolleyes: > > All you people with no sense of humor, chill. That was a joke. Happy New Year! It is a valid concern, so it is good to see you’re going to completely ignore it. That fact is that armed personnel need to be armed as they board the aircraft (because leaving weapons unattended on the aircraft would be insane). This requires that the personnel need to be armed when in another country’s territory. You are demanding that all non-American countries should bow to the almighty US and allow this. Thus it is only fair that vice versa should apply and all other countries get to have armed personnel at US airports. I have been extremely amused at the idea of yours of the US pulling out of international treaties unless other countries bend over backwards for the US. All it would take is the other countries saying fuck this and suddenly people can fly out of the US but can’t actually fly back in. One other thing that I didn’t see in this thread. The BBC were reporting that the privacy concern over the use of the full body scanners (which you in the US might not care about but over here in Europe it is a big issue and in most places where they exist they are used on a purely voluntary basis) has been solved by have a computer instead of a human operator deal with the images. Only if the image is assessed to be suspect will a human get involved and view the images. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/196 "2010-01-02T02:01:08Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > It is a valid concern, so it is good to see you’re going to completely ignore it. Let me illuminate you. I would allow reciprocity with any country that allows our marshals on. Not that the gun-hating Eurotypes would necessarily take us up on it, but as far as I’m concerned, it’s their country, they get to choose what security is in place for inbound planes to their airports. _Same as us_ > [@](#): > > That fact is that armed personnel need to be armed as they board the aircraft (because leaving weapons unattended on the aircraft would be insane). This requires that the personnel need to be armed when in another country’s territory. yup, that’s how it works. Happens a lot in the military you know; last I checked America had a hell of a lot of armed personnel across UK, Germany, other NATO locations, plus Korea, Japan, you get the picture. I’d guess but don’t know for sure that our FBI and other law enforcement, when going overseas for a prisoner transfer or something, are also armed, and the world doesn’t end. > [@](#): > > You are demanding that all non-American countries should bow to the almighty US and allow this. Thus it is only fair that vice versa should apply and all other countries get to have armed personnel at US airports. see above > [@](#): > > I have been extremely amused at the idea of yours of the US pulling out of international treaties unless other countries bend over backwards for the US. All it would take is the other countries saying fuck this and suddenly people can fly out of the US but can’t actually fly back in. Once a treaty of any kind starts to threaten American interests more than protect them, then the treaty is obsolete and needs to be amended or discontinued. Happens from time to time. It’s a new, dangerous world out there, this is a new kind of war, etc etc, I’m sure you’ve heard. Some might ignore the threat, worry about offending the international community, or worse, choose to try to reason with or negotiate with the terrorists. That’s Spain’s trick. Not mine. > [@](#): > > One other thing that I didn’t see in this thread. The BBC were reporting that the privacy concern over the use of the full body scanners (which you in the US might not care about but over here in Europe it is a big issue and in most places where they exist they are used on a purely voluntary basis) has been solved by have a computer instead of a human operator deal with the images. Only if the image is assessed to be suspect will a human get involved and view the images. You didn’t read the whole article. Go back and re-read, please. > [@](#): > > Let go of your fear of nudity. In the age of pubic powdered explosives, we can’t let you board a plane without somebody scrutinizing your naked body. But we can offer you a different kind of privacy: Nobody who sees your naked body will see your face. That’s how the TSA system works: The naked image shows up in a separate room without facial detail. The officer who sees you in the flesh never sees you on the monitor. The officer who sees you on the monitor never sees you in the flesh. It’s like the blind men and the elephant: Nobody has the whole picture. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/197 "2010-01-02T02:14:06Z")
Another piece today in the WaPo, by a guy who knew how to run DHS a hell of a lot better than the politician in there now > **[Michael Chertoff - Former homeland security chief argues for whole-body imaging](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/31/AR2009123101746.html?hpid=opinionsbox1)** > > The Obama administration must stand firm against privacy ideologues, says the former DHS secretary. we need those machines in every airport. Now. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/198 "2010-01-02T02:42:30Z")
> [@](#): > > “New Orleans ‘Dodged the Bullet’” > > Director of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff "told Meet the Press’s Tim Russert on Sunday, September 4, 2005, that one reason for the delay in getting federal aid to Katrina victims was that ‘everyone’ thought the crisis had passed when the storm left: > > ``` > "I remember on Tuesday morning picking up newspapers and I saw headlines, 'New Orleans Dodged The Bullet,' because if you recall the storm moved to the east and then continued on and appeared to pass with considerable damage but nothing worse. It was on Tuesday that the levee--may have been overnight Monday to Tuesday--that the levee started to break," Chertoff told Russert. > > ``` [http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=“New\_Orleans\_‘Dodged\_the\_Bullet’”](http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=%22New_Orleans_%27Dodged_the_Bullet%27%22) That’s a **major failure in homeland security for Chertoff** right there. It’s right up there with Condoleezza’s “no one could have imagined jets flying into buildings” when many _had_ imagined it years before. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/199 "2010-01-02T03:11:44Z")
A lot of countries think they are safer by not being big brothers or bullies. By sticking our noses into politics around the world we generate resentment. We are all over the mid-east blowing countries up and killing and jailing their citizens. Get used to be hated. We don’t use diplomacy or politics. We use force. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/200 "2010-01-02T03:19:00Z")
They’re going to walk into the room where the computer that monitors these full-body scans is located, and find it masturbating like a motherboard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908.md?page=11)