# The system worked **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 29, 2009, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908 "2009-12-29T15:02:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/81 "2009-12-29T18:43:10Z")
As of 2005, the TSA aimed to have air marshals on 3% of domestic flights, [but usually didn’t due to undermanning.](http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1228/p01s04-uspo.html) The number of air marshals was actually shrinking at the time, so I’d be awfully surprised if coverage is even _that_ good now. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/82 "2009-12-29T18:45:22Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > I guess I forgot the sarcasm quote thing. There’s some sort of internet law about satire of extremism being indistinguishable from extremism itself, isn’t there? > [@](#): > > Look, I’m not some black-helicopter, one-world-gov conspiracy theory guy. But I do a lot of work with both DHS and TSA. I know how they work, I know a lot of the people there. These are reasonable security measures. Janet’s silliness about sitting in your chair the last hour of the flight (“well, they can blow up the plane mid-flight, but not at the end of the trip by God…”) is ridiculous. Of course it is. > [@](#): > > My guess is that if there were a poll about this (anyone got a link/cite to one?), that vast majorities of Americans would be infavor of what I’ve proposed. So? Lots of them support teaching creationism in schools. Lots of them support torture? So what? > [@](#): > > I know that doesn’t sit well with the chardonnay/sailboat/tofu crowd that dominates this board, but there you are. What doesn’t sit well with them? The imaginary poll results you just mentioned in the post I quoted and have never mentioned before? How do you know? And where does the tofu fit in? ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/83 "2009-12-29T18:46:07Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > My guess is that if there were a poll about this (anyone got a link/cite to one?), that vast majorities of Americans would be infavor of what I’ve proposed. I know that doesn’t sit well with the chardonnay/sailboat/tofu crowd that dominates this board, but there you are. Vast majorities of Americans are as dumb as rocks and will agree to anything that purports to make them safer, whether effective or not. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/84 "2009-12-29T18:46:45Z")
> [@](#): > > I know that doesn’t sit well with the chardonnay/sailboat/tofu crowd that dominates this board, but there you are. I don’t like chardonnay, sailboats or tofu. Or crowds, for that matter. Do I have to turn in my liberal card? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/85 "2009-12-29T18:49:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Hey! Some of my best friends are cocksuckers! You know what the most dangerous thing to an airline pilot is? A stewardess with a chipped tooth. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/86 "2009-12-29T18:54:24Z")
**Gigo** , if the lack of air marshals and backscatter at Schiphol is our choice and not theirs, then I will back off my comments. I agree that those big-time scanners are, to a large extent, being held up in America due to the “privacy factor” [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34614797/ns/travel-news](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34614797/ns/travel-news) and while to some extent we’re always fighting the last war, I think that given how big a deal airline terrorism is to our country, we need to suck it up and go with that, despite the desires of the always-helpful ACLU. **RNATB** , yes banning cars would be safer for all of us. Good luck with that. Give me a call when you have something to add. **wmfel** , I already linked to that. Big difference though: we can’t do much about lighting strikes, but we can about airport security if we’re serious enough. **Lightnin’** , you’ve actually raised a good point in my opinion, before you got all sarcastic. There is some cost/benefit breakdown to be considered. I think putting these in every airport would be a good investment in safety. Obviously opinions vary. (Warning: all you squishy panty-wearing lefties look away, knuckledragging mouthbreather dumbfuckistan comment coming) Until L3 can build enough of them, I’d profile passengers and run the high-percentage people through first, including arab and african young males who buy one-way tickets with cash the day before, especially when the guy’s dad, who isn’t some whackjob but is actually the CEO of his country’s version of Bank of America, tells us his son is up to no good. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/87 "2009-12-29T18:57:39Z")
Government bureaucracies exist to defend, perpetuate and expand themselves. Including the ones that are supposed to be all-concerned with our national security (yep, including FEMA, the Pentagon, the CIA, the NSA, etc.) Once you understand that, Napolitano’s initial response makes perfect sense. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/88 "2009-12-29T18:59:14Z")
Airline terrorism isn’t a big deal to our country. It is perceived as being a big deal. > [@](#): > > RNATB, yes banning cars would be safer for all of us. Good luck with that. Give me a call when you have something to add. I have added plenty, thank you. Frankly, banning private automobile ownership doesn’t seem any less plausible than violating our treaty obligations by putting armed plainclothes law enforcement personnel in foreign airports and on foreign flag air carriers when we can’t afford to put one on more than one twentieth of domestic flights anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/89 "2009-12-29T18:59:17Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t like chardonnay, sailboats or tofu. Or crowds, for that matter. Do I have to turn in my liberal card? apparently a lack of a sense of humor is also de rigeur for acceptance into liberal status on this board. 😃 Or as I’ve seen stated before, joining the _hive mind_. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/90 "2009-12-29T19:00:24Z")
I suppose you won’t be joining us, then. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/91 "2009-12-29T19:01:49Z")
> [@tacoloco](#): > > Vast majorities of Americans are as dumb as rocks and will agree to anything that purports to make them safer, whether effective or not. Well, having lived overseas, I would say that vast majorities of _people_ are dumb as rocks, but otherwise, spot on. **wmfellows** , I agree that we should stop being so afraid of everything. Also, Fucking Bloody Balls would be an awesome band name! ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/92 "2009-12-29T19:03:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Airline terrorism isn’t a big deal to our country. It is perceived as being a big deal. > > Frankly, banning private automobile ownership doesn’t seem any less plausible than violating our treaty obligations by putting armed plainclothes law enforcement personnel in foreign airports and on foreign flag air carriers when we can’t afford to put one on more than one twentieth of domestic flights anyway. OK, that’s the crux of it: why can’t we afford that? why can’t we put a scanner in every airport and make them mandatory? who decided that? If your figures are right, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, it was bad in 2005 and still bad now. This is happening on both Bush’s and Obama’s watch. Democratic and Republican congresses. I’m going to predict that this incident will raise the issue in the public consciousness, and get TSA off their collective asses and start doing something that actually protects Americans. Unless they get distracted by the holidays or the new American idol and pushes this issue out of the 24 hr news cycle. But that never happens. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/93 "2009-12-29T19:04:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t like chardonnay, sailboats or tofu. Nor do I. You’re only one tax bracket away from Dom Perignon, yachts, and Beluga, i.e., Republicanism. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/94 "2009-12-29T19:06:17Z")
“Hive mind!” I’ve got a Bingo! I win! The rest of you put your cards down. I thought I had a winner with with “tofu”, but that’s only because I was expecting an ensuing “arrugula.” ---
**Author:** ![AmericanMaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@AmericanMaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmericanMaid)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/95 "2009-12-29T19:08:13Z")
> [@](#): > > …and while to some extent we’re always fighting the last war, I think that given how big a deal airline terrorism is to our country, we need to suck it up and go with that, despite the desires of the always-helpful ACLU. I was picking tofu out of my teeth befoe I took my next sip of chardonnay when I read this quote. Can I ask for a cite please? Exactly when and how has the ACLU impeded security on airlines? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/96 "2009-12-29T19:15:57Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > I’m going to predict that this incident will raise the issue in the public consciousness, and get TSA off their collective asses and start doing something that actually protects Americans. Unless they get distracted by the holidays or the new American idol and pushes this issue out of the 24 hr news cycle. > > But that never happens. It’s not that very hard to understand all this. People don’t want to be blown up, but they don’t want to be inconvenienced or have their privacy invaded any further than necessary. The current procedures already annoy the shit out of most people, few people believe they’re effective, and have (to my undying amazement) made commercial air travel an even more unpleasant experience than it was 10 years ago. You can imagine what happens next if security is “improved” some more with full body scans or mandatory pat-downs or some such. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/97 "2009-12-29T19:16:17Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > OK, that’s the crux of it: why can’t we afford that? why can’t we put a scanner in every airport and make them mandatory? who decided that? Congress. And spending a shit ton of money on better scanning or putting significant numbers of air marshalls on airline flights is not a sensible way of protecting Americans (or anyone else, for that matter). How many air terror incidents have we had in the last decade? Less than a dozen. How many people were killed? A couple of thousand, and nobody since 2001 - and of course baggage scanning would not have done much good in 2001. > [@](#): > > If your figures are right, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, it was bad in 2005 and still bad now. This is happening on both Bush’s and Obama’s watch. Democratic and Republican congresses. > > I’m going to predict that this incident will raise the issue in the public consciousness, and get TSA off their collective asses and start doing something that actually protects Americans. Unless they get distracted by the holidays or the new American idol and pushes this issue out of the 24 hr news cycle. > > But that never happens. This “issue” was already ridiculously high in the public consciousness, and this incident is going to do nothing but push it even higher than it should be. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/98 "2009-12-29T19:17:35Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **Sinaijon** , try this: Napolitano was neither right nor wrong on either occasion. Does that hurt your brain much? No, it doesn’t. But in order to achieve the level of suspension of disbelief required to believe that pretty much means I need to shut down all brain activity. So the lack of pain is more a side effect than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/99 "2009-12-29T19:58:30Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > **Gigo** , if the lack of air marshals and backscatter at Schiphol is our choice and not theirs, then I will back off my comments. > **[Federal Air Marshal Service](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Air_Marshal_Service)** > > The Federal Air Marshal Service (FAMS) is a United States federal law enforcement agency under the supervision of the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) of the United States Department of Homeland Security (DHS). > Because of the nature of their occupation, federal air marshals (FAMs) travel often. They must also train to be highly proficient marksmen. A FAM's job is to blend in with other passengers on board aircraft and rely heavily on their training, including investigative techniques... > [@](#): > > After the hijacking of TWA Flight 847 in 1985 and the enactment of the International Security and Development Cooperation Act, the number of FAMs was increased and their focus became international US Air Carrier operations. Due to resistance of several countries e.g., the United Kingdom and the Federal Republic of Germany to having individuals carrying firearms entering their countries the coverage of international flight operations was initially spotty. As resistance to the entrance of armed personnel to their countries was overcome through bilateral negotiations and agreements reached as to the terms and handling of the weapons when they were brought in country, the FAMs were able to operate worldwide in carrying out their mission to protect US aviation from hijackings. Clearly, today that mission also includes dealing with terrorists. > [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > I agree that those big-time scanners are, to a large extent, being held up in America due to the “privacy factor” > > [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34614797/ns/travel-news](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34614797/ns/travel-news) AFAIK it seems that the system in place is that Amsterdam does follow what we recommend. > [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > and while to some extent we’re always fighting the last war, I think that given how big a deal airline terrorism is to our country, we need to suck it up and go with that, despite the desires of the always-helpful ACLU. Well, the ACLU is not mentioned in the quoted article, it is true that the ACLU does not like the screen machines; but the latest actions of the ACLU show that they concentrate on the abuses of the screeners, the ACLU considers it to be OK to search for weapons or explosives, but not for other items unrelated to their mission: [http://blogs.wsj.com/middleseat/2009/11/11/tsa-tells-airport-screeners-to-stick-to-weapons-and-explosives/](http://blogs.wsj.com/middleseat/2009/11/11/tsa-tells-airport-screeners-to-stick-to-weapons-and-explosives/) Based on what I have seen in the past, it is not the ACLU the ones that complain the most, but the well to do. Repeat (usually rich) fliers got to enjoy sooner than everyone else the benefits of relaxations of security. One thing forgotten by many on the right is that the terrorists on 9/11 used to their advantage the more relaxed treatment that very well to do passengers got. It would not surprise me that in the most recent case we got a repeat of a terrorist being barely frisked because he was in first class or had other benefits that his wealth allowed. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908/100 "2009-12-29T20:25:39Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > I’m going to predict that this incident will raise the issue in the public consciousness, and get TSA off their collective asses and start doing something that actually protects Americans. I’m not overly impressed with TSA either, but I think the stats quoted in Post #71 tell me I shouldn’t be overly concerned by your Chicken Littleism as well. You have failed to convince me, and numerous others, apparently, that major changes to the current security system are as urgently needed as you seem to think they are. You are welcome to keep hammering on the same tired points if you like, but unless you come up with a more persuasive argument, I think I’ve heard everything you’re likely to say on this subject. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-system-worked/522908.md?page=6)