# "The takeover of the environmental movement by capitalism is now complete." **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 27, 2020, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648 "2020-04-27T03:08:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2020, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648/21 "2020-04-29T12:28:59Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > “It’s not the carbon dioxide molecule destroying the planet; it’s us.” That’s one of many provocative claims from a [new documentary, _Planet of the Humans_](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk11vI-7czE), which claims, with vivid and compelling imagery, that green energy is an illusion. The film is deliberately sensationalist and provocative; but much of it is factual. I post in GD as a challenge to Dopers to confirm or refute some of the film’s allegations. > > Biomass and biofuel are singled out for special attention in the documentary. (They aren’t as renewable as claimed; polluting tire chips or other trash are sometimes added to wood chips to enhance burning.) **Huge swathes of the Amazon jungle have been replaced with sugarcane plantations for biofuel.** Alligator fat and seaweed are new types of biofuel! But the documentary also claims that wind and solar power are not as benign as commonly thought. Wind and solar arrays need to be replaced every 20 years; production of the needed materials is itself energy-intensive. > > Many environmentalists, including myself, still believe that high human population is “the elephant in the room,” or as someone in the film says, “the herd of elephants in the room.” > > The documentary points fingers at **the Koch Brothers** (who are probably the largest recipients of biomass subsidies in the U.S.!) , Richard Branson, Al Gore, and others who are making money via supposedly green programs. Toward the end of the film is the claim: “The takeover of the environmental movement by capitalism is now complete.” The Koch brothers\* and the leader of Brazil are not environmentalists who let themselves get taken over by capitalists. They ARE the capitalists on the other side who don’t give a crap about the environment. Certainly people like Richard Branson and Al Gore haven’t sold out to them. This is basically another aspect of the far left mistakenly believing that they’ve been sold out by mainstream left leaders, and no matter how hard I try to understand I don’t get where they’re coming from. I’ll stick to the US since that’s the scene I’m most familiar with, but I bet this scenario I’m going to outline is the same in representative governments worldwide. Let’s set the starting point as a period of time when the mainstream left is in power, such as just after the election of Obama here in the US. Obviously he didn’t singlehandedly turn around the problem of global warming, because that’s going to take time. Unfortunately those on the far left expected instant results, and when they didn’t get them they threw a hissy fit that resulted in the right wing taking over the legislature in 2010, the effects of which we are still dealing with today. Not only that, but to then turn around and point at the leaders on the mainstream left and say they sold out is beyond ridiculous. Obama, Pelosi, and Schumer (and their equivalents in other countries) didn’t sell out. They lost power to the right wing and thus were unable to further enact the environmentalist agenda. Hillary Clinton most definitely didn’t sell out, and didn’t even have the opportunity to do so. But these people on the far left really want to continue to blame mainstream liberals for selling out? It pisses me off that even now they continue down that path :mad:. If these people are going to blame Al Gore (and presumably Obama) for things that the Koch Brothers\* and Jair Bolsonaro (the Brazilian president who allows and even encourages the aforementioned rainforest to be burned, mainly for cattle farming rather than growing sugarcane) are doing to ruin the environment, as if they are all on the same team, how can one even have a reasonable conversation with them 😕? To make a long story short, this is just another example of the far left blaming the mainstream left for the actions of the far right. \*Yes, I’m aware that one of the Koch brothers has passed. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2020, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648/22 "2020-04-29T16:06:02Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Capitalists won’t do this on their own. They need the government to do the outlays in terms of investment and infrastructure first. The problem is that for those capitalists who’ve already built their empires on fossil fuels and their related industries, change is a threat to their wealth, so their investments go not toward the environment and different types of energy but on rigging the political system to protect their wealth. And not only do they seek to protect it but also to strip more people of their wealth. More wealth means more access to the political system, and less of it means greater financial insecurity at the individual household level and less time devoted to politics and more time worrying about basic survival. And the poor are still motivated to vote, then just move the voting precinct 40 miles away. If we have capitalists who are making a profit by helping the environment and capitalists who are making a profit by harming the environment, we shouldn’t be opposing all capitalists. We should distinguish between the two groups and only oppose those who are harming the environment. The same argument applies to socialists and anarchists and any other group of ideologues. The environmental movement should be focused on protecting the environment, not on advancing some political or economic ideology. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2020, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648/23 "2020-04-29T16:19:45Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > The profit motive is one of the most reliable tools for stimulating innovation and increasing efficiency. No problem as gigantic as climate change can be realistically solved without capitalism and the profit motive. Obviously you also need government action through a carbon tax, funding for R&D etc. I have a friend who’s gay and transgendered and pretty far to the left of the political spectrum. She complained one time about corporate appropriation of the LBGTQ movement. I told her she should accept it as a sign of the movement’s success; LBGTQ people were now part of the mainstream and corporations therefore wanted to make a profit off them just like they did everyone else. The only way a movement can avoid capitalism is to fail. Any movement that succeeds will grow big enough for capitalists to want to join in so they can sell t-shirts. The movement shouldn’t try to fight this. They should accept the capitalists into their ranks, take their money, and use it to further the cause. The only time capitalism becomes a problem is if the movement begins to cater to the capitalists and starts making decisions based on increasing profits rather than advancing the cause. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2020, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648/24 "2020-04-29T21:31:19Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Ars Technica has a good piece on the film: > [Michael Moore’s green energy takedown—worse than Netflix’s Goop series?](https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/04/michael-moores-green-energy-takedown-worse-than-netflixs-goop-series/) > > I think maybe you can guess the author’s opinion on the work. Though as noted, one doesn’t have to look any farther than “Michael Moore” to realize it’s complete claptrap. Wrote it better than I did: > [@](#): > > There is an entire field of science dedicated to what is called “Life Cycle Analysis”—estimating the cradle-to-grave impacts of mining for, manufacturing, using, and disposing of things like solar panels or electric vehicles. That science makes exactly zero appearances in Planet of the Humans. Instead, we are treated to a series of “revelations” that most people should be well aware of. Fossil fuels are still used to manufacture and bring us wind turbines! Raw materials are mined to make electric vehicle batteries! Solar panels don’t last forever and are eventually replaced! Although Tesla says its Gigafactory is generating renewable electricity to cover 100 percent of usage, it’s connected to the grid by power lines! > > Who are these statements surprising to? Who indeed. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648/25 "2020-05-01T00:09:37Z")
I police-up litter, generate minimal trash, and otherwise fulfill my Green Party membership all on my own. No corporation bribes me. Am I missing out? If I were a long-term pragmatist I would encourage despoliation of Terra’s biosphere. More smog! More plastic! More carcinogens! Because unless the environment goes to shit we won’t be impelled to escape the planet before the next extinction-event asteroid whacks us. We can’t conquer the universe then. But if extinction doesn’t put us out of our misery, maybe we’d better clean up. Deniers must hate their grandkids. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648/26 "2020-05-01T00:21:12Z")
The environment going to shit would have zero value as an incentive to escape the planet. No matter how bad the Earth gets, making Earth habitable again is always going to be easier than making Mars habitable. Any planet other than Mars, even harder yet. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648/27 "2020-05-01T12:39:25Z")
I have worked on bioenergy on and off since the early 2000. Mostly worked on feasibility analysis, return on investment analysis, etc. Have done work with many large corporations and many many other research institutions / universities. In my experience, corporations were always hesitant to go ahead with these projects because the numbers never added up. It was the Scientists and the Professors that were most gung-ho on selling this technology, getting grants from the government and generally “green washing” these technologies. Most major universities setup multiple labs, research institutions… some even started making and selling biofuels. Some would argue that that’s what research / Scientists are supposed to do, but I personally know of many instances where voices of dissent among scientists were ruthlessly crushed. So just blaming capitalists for this is sheer stupidity, the Scientists / Researchers / Academics are equally to blame and I wish they have the moral courage to stand up and admit that they were wrong. Even now as we speak, people all over the US are “recycling” household plastics and paper. All environmentalists fully know that these are not getting recycled but are headed to landfills for the last 2 years. But the environmentalists won’t tell the ordinary folks to stop paying for recycling services. And ordinary folks will keep wasting water cleaning up recycling plastic, trucks will run around collecting recyclables making more CO2 … you know the drill. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648/28 "2020-05-01T13:54:32Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > In my experience, corporations were always hesitant to go ahead with these projects because the numbers never added up. And without a price on carbon emissions, I expect that to almost always be the case. And even with one, moving destributed biomass is inherently size-limiting. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648/29 "2020-05-01T14:17:14Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > And without a price on carbon emissions, I expect that to almost always be the case. > > And even with one, moving destributed biomass is inherently size-limiting. Agree fully - but then there was the scientists lobbying the government to give subsidies / incentivize “green technologies” . They even made up fancy terms like “woody biomass” and “non-cellulosic biomass” and even incentivized people to plant Jatropha and what not. Meanwhile my small gas operated blower kept choking up on ethanol added gasoline (another story of sheer scientific faulty foresight and Unpragmatic environmentalism). ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648/30 "2020-05-01T16:19:58Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > Even now as we speak, people all over the US are “recycling” household plastics and paper. All environmentalists fully know that these are not getting recycled but are headed to landfills for the last 2 years. But the environmentalists won’t tell the ordinary folks to stop paying for recycling services. And ordinary folks will keep wasting water cleaning up recycling plastic, trucks will run around collecting recyclables making more CO2 … you know the drill. This might be true in some regions, but to claim that this is true across the US is false, and becoming falser by the day as supply chains figure out how to recover from the shocks of China simply turning off the receiving spigot. There was an [article](https://www.seattletimes.com/pacific-nw-magazine/with-recyclings-dirty-truths-exposed-washington-works-toward-a-cleaner-more-sustainable-system/) about the local adjustments that have been taken on in northwest around recycling just a week or so ago. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648/31 "2020-05-01T16:49:22Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The only time capitalism becomes a problem is if the movement begins to cater to the capitalists and starts making decisions based on increasing profits rather than advancing the cause. I would take this even further, it’s only a problem if catering to the capitalists is antithetical to the cause. If market demand and government regulations make the pro-environment decision the same as the most profitable decision, capitalism will do all the work for you. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648/32 "2020-05-01T18:11:06Z")
> [@pullin](#): > > I watched this yesterday, and was curious about doper reactions. Thanks to OP for starting this. > > My take was that a lot of cool “green sounding” phraseology was being used to hide business-as-usual energy production. Apparently, biomass is a fancy new word for logging. Logging for biomass is a good way to go broke. In my area sawlogs are going for $400 per thousand board feet (mbf) scribner. If I convert the pulp price of $35 a ton to mbf I get $245 per mbf. Biomass is the shit they can’t make pulp out of. Rot, bark, hog fuel. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2020, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648/33 "2020-05-01T18:11:56Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > This might be true in some regions, but to claim that this is true across the US is false,… > There was an [article](https://www.seattletimes.com/pacific-nw-magazine/with-recyclings-dirty-truths-exposed-washington-works-toward-a-cleaner-more-sustainable-system/) about the local adjustments that have been taken on in northwest around recycling just a week or so ago… Wow - that article gave me a glimmer of hope. It mentions the company doing their paper recycling (Norpac), glass recycling but not plastic recycling. Anyways - I went on to read about NORPAC. Then I read this [article.](https://apnews.com/6d5ab2d12f58491780be69d219338b43/US-publishers-worry-about-pricier-newsprint-with-new-tariffs) Summary :smack:: NORPAC is owned by a NY Hedge fund company and they lobbied to get tariffs placed on Canadian paper to make themselves profitable. Meanwhile, Newspapers which were already on thin ice have to pay extra for paper. Another example of the capitalist “green washing” the OP is talking about. I lost my appetite to further check on the glass recycling company ☹ ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648/34 "2020-05-04T17:22:11Z")
I also found many gaping gaps in the Michael Moore “documentary”'s narrative. [This TEDx Talk may be more intelligent.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-yALPEpV4w) Formerly an environmentalist favoring solar and wind power, Michael Shellenberger deplores their environmental costs and has come around to embrace nuclear power. He even makes an (outrageous?) claim that oil companies encourage solar and wind power because they know countries that adopt them, unlike countries with nuclear, will need carbon-powered plants to keep the grid up. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648/35 "2020-05-04T18:35:57Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I also found many gaping gaps in the Michael Moore “documentary”'s narrative. > > [This TEDx Talk may be more intelligent.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-yALPEpV4w) Formerly an environmentalist favoring solar and wind power, Michael Shellenberger deplores their environmental costs and has come around to embrace nuclear power. He even makes an (outrageous?) claim that oil companies encourage solar and wind power because they know countries that adopt them, unlike countries with nuclear, will need carbon-powered plants to keep the grid up. Outrageous it is, and not more intelligent: I think in another thread I noticed that Mr Shellenberger is an unreliable narrator. > **[The latest weak attacks on EVs and solar panels | Dana Nuccitelli](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2018/jun/04/the-latest-weak-attacks-on-evs-and-solar-panels)** > > Dana Nuccitelli: The powerful few who benefit from the fossil fuel status quo are exerting their influence > [@](#): > > The first salvo came via a Forbes article written by Michael Shellenberger, who’s running a doomed campaign for California governor and really loves nuclear power. Shellenberger’s critique focused on the problem of potential waste at the end of a solar panel lifespan when the modules must be disposed or recycled. It’s a somewhat ironic concern from a proponent of nuclear power, which has a rather bigger toxic waste problem. > > About 80% of a solar panel module can be recycled, but some portions cannot, and create potentially hazardous waste due to the presence of metals like cadmium and lead. The Electric Power Research Institute notes that long-term storage of used panels until recycling technologies become available may be the best option for dealing with this waste stream. Ultimately, it’s an issue that will need to be addressed as solar panels become more widespread and reach the end of their 25-plus year lifespan, much like the issue of nuclear waste. But it’s an issue that we should be able to resolve with smart policies and technologies. In the past I noticed how he was a founder of the Breakthrough Institute, and scientists that deal with the environment are not impressed by it. > **[Breakthrough Institute](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_Institute#cite_note-56)** > > The Breakthrough Institute is an environmental research center located in Berkeley, California. Founded in 2007 by Michael Shellenberger and Ted Nordhaus, The institute is aligned with ecomodernist philosophy. The Institute advocates for an embrace of modernization and technological development (including nuclear power and carbon capture) in order to address environmental challenges. Proposing urbanization, agricultural intensification, nuclear power, aquaculture, and desalination as pro Since... > [@](#): > > Climate scientist Michael E. Mann questions the motives of the Breakthrough Institute. According to Mann the self-declared mission of the BTI is to look for a breakthrough to solve the climate problem. However Mann states that basically the BTI “appears to be opposed to anything - be it a price on carbon or incentives for renewable energy - that would have a meaningful impact.” He notes that the BTI “remains curiously preoccupied with opposing advocates for meaningful climate action and is coincidentally linked to natural gas interests” and criticises the BTI for advocating “continued exploitation of fossil fuels”. Mann also questions that the BTI on the one hand seems to be “very pessimistic” about renewable energy, while on the other hand “they are extreme techno-optimists” regarding geoengineering.[56] ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2020, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648/36 "2020-05-04T20:49:50Z")
There are certain situations where it’s possible for the marginal unit of renewable generating capacity can result in positive marginal emissions due to use of inefficient peakers, but I don’t find that argument persuasive. It’s easier to deal with if emissions are disincentivized, as opposed to incentivizing individual technologies. As someone who is personally sanguine about fission, I find the use of waste to criticize any other technology highly suspect. But yes, there is a delayed waste stream from solar power. It’s important that we don’t ignore the costs. There is no energy technology where the only waste stream is rainbows and laughter. But there are plenty that are better than the incumbents. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2020, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648/37 "2020-05-06T16:52:23Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > Wow - that article gave me a glimmer of hope. It mentions the company doing their paper recycling (Norpac), glass recycling but not plastic recycling. > > Anyways - I went on to read about NORPAC. Then I read this [article.](https://apnews.com/6d5ab2d12f58491780be69d219338b43/US-publishers-worry-about-pricier-newsprint-with-new-tariffs) > > Summary :smack:: NORPAC is owned by a NY Hedge fund company and they lobbied to get tariffs placed on Canadian paper to make themselves profitable. Meanwhile, Newspapers which were already on thin ice have to pay extra for paper. > > Another example of the capitalist “green washing” the OP is talking about. > > I lost my appetite to further check on the glass recycling company ☹ I meant to reply on this sooner, but it got lost in a stack of stuff to do. Just got around to reading the apnews article you linked. I’m not going to defend NORPAC here. It’s obvious that they’re slimy. But it’s also obvious that after the jolt from China no longer importing recyclables, the domestic supply chain is starting to handle the flow. It’s just false that it’s all being landfilled. But one thing you’re certainly right about is that this is similar to what the OP is talking about! Like the movie, it’s falsely applying a standard of purity when the questions should be is it (recycling/green energy) better than the alternatives, and does it provide a path forward for further improvement. And the answers to both appear to be yes. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648/38 "2020-05-07T19:43:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This shouldn’t be an issue of capitalism vs socialism. Neither side should be hijacking the environment to promote its economic ideology. > > I have no problem with capitalists taking over the environmental movement and making billions of dollars by doing so - as long as they are providing real solutions to the problems. ``` I agree with you on this. I think that it won't happens as fast we we might like but as we are speaking technology is developing and will continue. When it becomes viable we will all happily make the switch. ``` ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648/39 "2020-05-07T21:41:10Z")
> [@Do Not Taunt](#): > > Like the movie, it’s falsely applying a standard of purity when the questions should be is it (recycling/green energy) better than the alternatives, and does it provide a path forward for further improvement. And the answers to both appear to be yes. Agree - that’s what I was driving towards. I am an immigrant and see people divided into two rigid camps of liberals and conservatives BOTH quite oblivious to the ground realities of environmentalism. Recently I was looking at a feasibility project to incinerate (burn) plastic waste. It got cancelled after a protest from one camp. The reason cited was dioxane emissions. Meanwhile, the Aluminum recycling plant, a few blocks away is happily emitting dioxanes. Both facilities were going to use similar controls BTW. > [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I agree with you on this. I think that it won’t happens as fast we we might like but as we are speaking technology is developing and will continue… There is actually pretty good technology out there. You can make clean power from coal, from natural gas, from oil with 0% CO2 emissions. You can also do nuclear like others have pointed out. Since Coal or Natural gas has inherent domestic security assurance, a small number of such fossil fuel plants maybe of strategic interest. One of the major problem with many of these projects are the same as above : Liberals versus Conservatives politics. Big projects like these take 3-5 years to get permits, and another 5 years or so to begin production. For nuclear it takes 10-15 years. For Capitalism to work In the energy sector, you need long term predictability of the market. If you go for something incentivized by Government A, it will most likely get reversed by the next government. You can’t have investors when you are uncertain on the rate of return. This is the reason why many power companies go for plants that can be quickly constructed and brought online. (Within the time frame of any single Government). Most often it is gas or oil that wins. The broader point is that the capitalism framework coexists with social and political framework. Capitalism produces “a local optimum solution” taking into account the other pressures. Capitalism by itself is no messiah that will drive societies towards well being. And despite the Ayn Rand idealism readily embraced by me in college years, I’ve found real life to be quite different. ---
**Author:** ![ralfy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ralfy/32/600_2.png) [@ralfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralfy)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2021, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648/40 "2021-11-10T03:18:30Z")
From last September, > **['Green' billionaires behind professional activist network that led...](https://thegrayzone.com/2020/09/07/green-billionaires-planet-of-the-humans/)** > > Michael Moore produced film Planet of the Humans faced censorship by professional climate activists backed by billionaires, Wall Street, foundations That is, large corporations shifting to energy that is not exactly green nor efficient from energy that was not green but more efficient. The only thing not mentioned is peak oil. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-takeover-of-the-environmental-movement-by-capitalism-is-now-complete/852648.md?page=3)