# The tasing of the naked wizard **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264 "2009-04-24T20:28:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Shamozzle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shamozzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shamozzle)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264/101 "2009-04-26T02:02:15Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’m not disagreeing with the fact that the guy was being uncooperative, and made a poor decision. Drunk’ll do that to you. But you know what ? A cop’s entire job consists of dealing with uncooperative people. > > And I’m sorry, but if three strong cops can’t throw a tarp on and haul some naked, out of shape, baked out of his wits guy off to the drunk tank without using a weapon, they shouldn’t be cops, period. I agree, those cops were pretty porky, and I commented upthread that they were forced to use the taser prematurely for that reason. > [@Kobal2](#): > > And they had ample time and opportunity to cuff him as they were twisting his arms to try and force him to get dressed They tried in all their porkiness to get both his wrists behind his back at the same time and cuffed and they failed. So they went to the juice. As I’ve said before, the only thing the cops are guilty of is downing too many jelly donuts. (and the angry knee slam, granted) > [@Kobal2](#): > > I interpret the knee-drop jerk’s actions as losing patience and using a completely inappropriate amount of force on a helpless moron. I agree with this. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Again, a major part of a cop’s job is to be patient and calmly deal with irrational, hostile people with as less violence as possible. And one of those 3 cops failed to do that, big time. But otherwise, they did the right thing, right? Unless free-range drunk naked guys are out of season… ---
**Author:** ![Shamozzle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shamozzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shamozzle)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264/102 "2009-04-26T02:09:25Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Excellent! I call bullshit on your reasoning, you agree, and then try and re-write and revise your reasoning to fit the conclusion you so badly want. But if you agree that he is so inebriated he is incapacitated, how you can hold him entirely responsible for events that, since he is incapacitated, are obviously completely and utterly NOT in his control? So it’s nobody’s fault? It’s just the unfortunate unraveling fate of the stars? It’s either the dude’s fault for being shitfaced and brain dead, or it’s his fault for willingly resisting. Either way it’s his fault he’s naked and drunk in public and resisting lawful removal, not the cops. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264/103 "2009-04-26T02:09:44Z")
Still looking, but found [this](http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/84955.php): > [@](#): > > Study Suggests Taser Use By US Police Is Safe > > A US study of the nationwide use of Tasers, the electrical stun guns used by the police, suggests the devices are safe and cause only a low incidence of serious injuries. > > The independent prospective study was carried out by emergency medicine researchers at the Wake Forest University School of Medicine and was presented at the American College of Emergency Physicians’ Research Forum in Seattle, Washington, yesterday, 8th October. The study was funded by the National Institute of Justice. Researchers from Louisiana State University, Inova Fairfax Hospital in Virginia, and University Medical Center, Nevada, also contributed to the study. > [@](#): > > The research examined nearly 1,000 cases of Taser use, and found 99.7 per cent of them had either no injuries, or only mild injuries such as “scrapes and bruises”. In 0.3 per cent of the cases (3 people) the injuries were serious enough to require hospital admission. Two had head injuries sustained during falls after the Taser was used and the third was hospitalized two days after arrest with a condition “of unclear relationship to the Taser” said the researchers in a prepared statement. > > Early results of the study (covering nearly 600 cases of Taser use) were published in a paper last year, in the September issue of the Annals of Emergency Medicine. > [@](#): > > Bozeman said the review covered 100 per cent of Taser use and the study offered the best information to date on the medical risks of using the weapon. He said other studies were limited because they looked either at the effect on animals or healthy police volunteers undergoing training (police officers have to experience the effect of a Taser before they can use one). He said this was the first study to examine the effect of Tasers on “criminal suspects in real-world conditions”. There are several similar studies in google, though a few of them are on sites of dubious trustworthy-ness. This one seems pretty solid though…and while it doesn’t directly contradict your cite, to me it does so by implication…again, I find it incredibly hard to believe that the pre-taser rates were this low (‘In 0.3 per cent of the cases (3 people) the injuries were serious enough to require hospital admission’)…3 out of a 1000?? I don’t believe in the billy clubs, rubber hoses and guns days that the rate was this low. If you find anything I’ll be very interested though…I’m still going to be looking tonight myself. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264/104 "2009-04-26T02:52:39Z")
> [@Shamozzle](#): > > But otherwise, they did the right thing, right? Unless free-range drunk naked guys are out of season… Meh. It’s not for me to say - I don’t really see how he was disturbing the peace in any way, shape or form, but then again I’m not from the US. Different places, different cultures. As for me, I’ve seen (and ignored) far more outlandish shit going on at concerts and festivals, and would probably not even bat an eyelid at free-range drunk open air fucking. You know what the Good Book says : if thine eye offends thee, pluck that mutha out. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264/105 "2009-04-26T03:03:38Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Excellent! I call bullshit on your reasoning, you agree, and then try and re-write and revise your reasoning to fit the conclusion you so badly want. But if you agree that he is so inebriated he is incapacitated, how you can hold him entirely responsible for events that, since he is incapacitated, are obviously completely and utterly NOT in his control? We hold inebriated people responsible for their actions. Otherwise you couldn’t get a DUI. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264/106 "2009-04-26T03:31:55Z")
> [@NoJustice](#): > > Just because someone is breaking the law does not make force neccessary. It is not neccessary for police to assert their athority whenever they encounter defiance. It is not their job to prove how tough they are. It is their job to keep the peace. That purpose is not served by using force when the only danger is to their own ego. Eh. I don’t know. I think if someone continues to break the law in front of the police, their job is to take the person in. If not, then no law in enforceable. Not all laws are there to protect the physical safety of the public. They are still crimes, and the police must certainly be able to stop crimes from happening. Note, I’m not arguing about whether or not nudity ought to be a crime, or whether these cops used too much force or inappropriate tools to do their jobs, only that arresting this individual was the right thing for them to do, given the law and the responsibilities of the police. ---
**Author:** ![picker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/picker/32/13969_2.png) [@picker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264/107 "2009-04-26T03:38:20Z")
Why wouldn’t they use pepper spray? It seems that would be far less potentially dangerous and would still probably force compliance. Hell, spray it on his junk, it’ll still probably hurt less than the taser. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264/108 "2009-04-26T05:49:19Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > … What alternatives do you suggest? > > -XT The only evidence offered so far suggests no benefit to Taser use. Case reports have been offered that document inappropriate Taser use - episodes in which Tasers were not used as a substitute for lethal force, but instead in which a Taser was used when either no force was needed or a good simple headlock would have done the trick. No evidence has been offered that shows any benefit has been gained by their wider use - either documentation of a decrease of serious harm or death to those being subdued or of a decrease of the same in arresting officers. Now I can certainly _imagine_ circumstances in which use of a Taser might provide an additional margin of safety to an arresting officer - but my imagination is hardly a convincing argument that such actually occurs even close to as often as the 0.3% of Taser uses that lead to injuries serious to require hospitalization. What would I suggest? There are strict guidelines for police officers that define when use of a gun is appropriate. I would suggest that also be guidelines that define appropriate use of Tasers and other “nonlethal” technologies. Taser use should be restricted to being applied to an individual who is reasonably expected to pose a significant threat of serious injury to the officers or others if restrained with less aggressive means (such as physical restraint). They should be used when the only other reasonable alternative would be the use of a firearm and if a Taser was not available a firearm would be used. Use outside of those guidelines should be subject to significant disciplinary action. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264/109 "2009-04-26T06:00:25Z")
In defense of the knee-drop, he wasn’t doing it for his jollies; it’s a relatively harmless technique used to get someone to turn over. The mind-boggling thing is that it worked, but for some unfathomable reason all 3 cops–their powers combined-- still couldn’t cuff him. I’d rather take 20 of those knees in a row than 3 seconds of tasing, which carries some random chance of death just as an added bonus on top of sucking hairy, shit-stained goat asshole. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264/110 "2009-04-26T06:39:30Z")
Tasers hurt, but the chance of someone getting injured from being wrestled down or beaten into submission is ever worse. it’s never as pretty as on TV, Tasers should ALWAYS be used if possible rather than hand to hand. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264/111 "2009-04-26T06:51:53Z")
> [@Shamozzle](#): > > So it’s nobody’s fault? It’s just the unfortunate unraveling fate of the stars? > > It’s either the dude’s fault for being shitfaced and brain dead, or it’s his fault for willingly resisting. Either way it’s his fault he’s naked and drunk in public and resisting lawful removal, not the cops. Like I said: you adjust your reasoning to fit the conclusion which you so badly want. Thanks for playing. ---
**Author:** ![Shamozzle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shamozzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shamozzle)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264/112 "2009-04-26T08:14:32Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Like I said: you adjust your reasoning to fit the conclusion which you so badly want. Thanks for playing. Can you please just answer my question? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264/113 "2009-04-26T10:01:23Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > What about [this case](http://community.emeraldcoast.com/common/printer/view.php?db=eccommunity&id=20273), in which a 17 year old girl was tased _while in handcuffs in police custody_? You mean the case of the belligerent teen? We are clearly using different definitions for the word cooperate. My definition does not include screaming constantly, demanding that my handcuffs be taken off, and when told to sit down saying “No, tase me.” I’m not saying this, or any other individual tasing was justified, I’m saying it NEVER seems to happen unless the “victim” has been acting like a complete ass and refusing to comply with an officer’s perfectly legal demands. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264/114 "2009-04-26T13:08:14Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > You mean the case of the belligerent teen? We are clearly using different definitions for the word cooperate. My definition does not include screaming constantly, demanding that my handcuffs be taken off, and when told to sit down saying “No, tase me.” > > I’m not saying this, or any other individual tasing was justified, I’m saying it NEVER seems to happen unless the “victim” has been acting like a complete ass and refusing to comply with an officer’s perfectly legal demands. So? Last I heard, the U.S. doesn’t support corporal punishment for the crime of “acting like an ass”. The use of the taser needs to be treated as a preferred alternative to the use of a firearm, not an alternative to nonviolent methods, and that includes throwing the book at any cop stupid enough to use one on an unarmed man without a damn good reason. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264/115 "2009-04-26T14:50:32Z")
If I may bring a few facts to this discussion for those who don’t have me on Ignore… It may be of interest to some of you that Cecil is going to tackle the topic of Tasers in about 2 weeks, after he tackles the topic of Pit bulls. I helped Cecil look up some of the facts about Tasers, principally slogging through every single account in the AI report (and others…sometimes Cecil is a big fan of work being its own reward 🙂 ), and I personally was unconvinced of the contribution to Tasers to the deaths in the report. In fact, AI does say that “Amnesty International’s review is not a scientific study, nor is the organization in a position to reach conclusions regarding the role of the Taser in each case.” The common theme I did see from reviewing hundreds of cases of Taser incidents was the large number of folks on drugs, both legal and otherwise, especially stimulants. I am generally an anti-Taser person, in that I believe that the police do jump towards using them when not appropriate, and I believe Taser use should only be used in a case where a firearm would otherwise have been drawn. I also believe that police frequently over-use and even mis-use Tasers. Nonetheless, despite my bias against them, I had trouble drawing a clear connection between the use of the Taser and the direct contribution to death. Cecil found a Canadian report where tests showed an alarmingly large percentage of a small sample of Tasers produced currents which were over their specs (see here: [http://www.cbc.ca/news/pdf/taser-analysis-v1.5.pdf](http://www.cbc.ca/news/pdf/taser-analysis-v1.5.pdf) ). And there were cases where it was proven that Tasering did in fact influence heart rhythm, including one bizarre case where a Taser may have shocked a person out of defib (“Fortuitous Therapeutic Effect of Taser Shock for a Patient in Atrial Fibrillation” _Annals of Emergency Medicine_ 52.6 (2008): 686-688.) Another case involved a guy shocked while wearing an intelligent pacemaker (Cao, Michael et al. “Taser-Induced Rapid Ventricular Myocardial Capture Demonstrated by Pacemaker Intracardiac Electrograms” _Journal of Cardiovascular Electrophysiology_ 18.8 (2007): 876-879.) I do not think those cases made it into the final column; I won’t know until I see what the Big Guy actually writes. In any event, keep an eye peeled for the Straight Dope in a couple of weeks. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264/116 "2009-04-26T14:55:08Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > You mean the case of the belligerent teen? We are clearly using different definitions for the word cooperate. My definition does not include screaming constantly, demanding that my handcuffs be taken off, and when told to sit down saying “No, tase me.” > > I’m not saying this, or any other individual tasing was justified, I’m saying it NEVER seems to happen unless the “victim” has been acting like a complete ass and refusing to comply with an officer’s perfectly legal demands. You mean, like the perfectly legal demand to stop filming an illegal search ? (see post #86) ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264/117 "2009-04-26T15:14:03Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > You mean the case of the belligerent teen? We are clearly using different definitions for the word cooperate. My definition does not include screaming constantly, demanding that my handcuffs be taken off, and when told to sit down saying “No, tase me.” > > I’m not saying this, or any other individual tasing was justified, I’m saying it NEVER seems to happen unless the “victim” has been acting like a complete ass and refusing to comply with an officer’s perfectly legal demands. Wait-- you’re saying it’s ok with you for the cops to shoot electrified spikes into people and shock them out of all their facilities just to get them to shut up? Someone who is NO threat at all? I know a secret way to get someone to shut up _without_ shooting electrified spikes into them and robbing them of all their facilities: ignore them for awhile. Sounds like the cop was stooping to her immaturity by arguing with her in the first place, and his ego couldn’t handle the fact that he wasn’t winning. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264/118 "2009-04-26T15:36:43Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I know a secret way to get someone to shut up _without_ shooting electrified spikes into them and robbing them of all their facilities: ignore them for awhile. Sounds like the cop was stooping to her immaturity by arguing with her in the first place, and his ego couldn’t handle the fact that he wasn’t winning. Great idea, it’s not like the police have anything better to do than sit in an office babysitting someone for hours until they decide to calm down. Of course, she may never decide to calm down since the police go away when she yells at them. I actually know a SUPER SECRET way to prevent the police from tasing you, when they arrest you, and handcuff you and tell you to sit down so they can process you… you don’t say “No, tase me.”, you sit down. Law Enforcement, for better or for worse, must have the ability to force people to comply with their orders, that is the entire point of “enforcement”, and it’s a necessary function of society. Officers, being human beings, are occasionally going to do something stupid and wrong and issue bad orders. That doesn’t change the fact that once they give you an order, legal or not, they’re going to follow through, and you will either comply, be forced to comply, or be arrested, the only question is which one. ---
**Author:** ![picker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/picker/32/13969_2.png) [@picker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264/119 "2009-04-26T16:25:53Z")
Everyone seems to have ignored my question. Why wouldn’t pepper spray be used as a method of incapacitating the detainee first? I can’t imagine it’s less effective, and I’m pretty sure it’s less potentially harmful in general. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264/120 "2009-04-26T16:26:14Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > If I may bring a few facts to this discussion for those who don’t have me on Ignore… Ignore you? Who would do that? Seriously. Anyway, some additional data to bring to the table. The study was admittedly only of Calgary and its environs, and there may be a selection bias in that different circumstances may have required different methods. The data such as it is shows that the safest approach for the officers is pepper spray with no hospitalizations or minor outpatient injuries reported. Baton use resulted in no hospitalizations but 12.9% minor outpatient injuries. Physical control and Tasers aka concentratrated energy weapon (CEW) were similar both with about a 1% hospitalization rate and with Tasers being associated with slightly fewer minor outpatient injuries, 4.5 to 2.1%. For the subject the spray was again the safest approach and the Taser was associated with fewer hospitalizations than either baton or physical control (1.1 to 3.2 to 4.1% respectively) and with fewer minor outpatient injuries. Interperet that how you will but I’m with you **Una** , the danger of physical harm seems to be non-zero but small, and not very much different than wrestling someone down apparently. That said the potential for abuse is significant. Few would beat a subject to make them be quiet or beat a person filming something in order to confiscate the camera, yet the leave no bruise Taser makes those tempting things to do when an officer is so equipped. And yes **picker** pepper spray seems like it should be utilized more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tasing-of-the-naked-wizard/494264.md?page=7)