The tasing of the naked wizard

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Kobal2

but 'round these parts, you resist arrest with a sawn-off shotgun.

Well, wasn’t he?

Oh, you mean an actual shotgun.

[maladroit]

I watched the video and it made me so angry. There was no reason those three large cops should not have been able to cuff the little stoner. I thought it was excessive force. Arrest him, sure, tase him, no. Just cuff him, stop being scared they might touch the little weiner.

[Magiver]

@Cisco

Dude, you’re not going to win this one. Let it go. It’s obvious to anyone who has ever used or been around recreational drug users that this guy’s mind was in another solar system at the time.

Sorry DUUUUDE, but the man was able to string words together into coherent sentences which is a far cry from being zoned out. He responded to what the police said repeatedly. He didn’t stagger and was able to rapidly bend over and pick up clothes to throw. He was capable of, and made choices toward, getting the attention he obviously was looking for, starting with his “look at me” nudity.

[Magiver]

@maladroit

I watched the video and it made me so angry. There was no reason those three large cops should not have been able to cuff the little stoner. I thought it was excessive force. Arrest him, sure, tase him, no. Just cuff him, stop being scared they might touch the little weiner.

You can’t cuff a 250 lb man they way they were trying without causing pain. Not going to happen.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Magiver

Sorry DUUUUDE, but the man was able to string words together into coherent sentences which is a far cry from being zoned out. He responded to what the police said repeatedly. He didn’t stagger and was able to rapidly bend over and pick up clothes to throw. He was capable of, and made choices toward, getting the attention he obviously was looking for, starting with his “look at me” nudity.

Your continual attempts to equate “intoxicated” only with “drunk” are not helping you make you arguments. There are many different substances one can consume to become intoxicated, and not all of them will cause people to act as alcohol will. Your failure to understand or acknowledge that is causing me to become almost dismissive of your posts in this thread, as it seems clear that you have already reached conclusions about this situation, even though you seem to have no actual experience (or understanding) of factors (which many find painfully obvious) at play in this situation.

I will add that no time did I see anything to indicate that this man was enjoying the attention (he is too far wigged out to even know that he is the center of attention, IMO), but to Magiver it’s “obvious”. Given that Magiver is unable to perceive that he is NOT drunk but is instead under the influence of something else, I find it unnecessary to accept his conclusion that the guy was resisting or “obviously looking” for attention.

Magiver, perhaps your interpretation of events is correct. Can you give times on the video of when the guy did something that showed, clearly, that he was seeking attention from the crowd, and enjoying it when he received it? Since you said he was “getting the attention he obviously was looking for” it should be easy for you to provide some instances in the video that show this. Then I’ll watch the video again, and maybe be convinced, at the least, that you are watching the same video as the rest of us.

[Kobal2]

@Magiver

You can’t cuff a 250 lb man they way they were trying without causing pain. Not going to happen.

So in order to not cause him some pain, giving him the worst pain in his life is justified ? You can’t be serious.

[Magiver]

@Snowboarder_Bo

Your continual attempts to equate “intoxicated” only with “drunk” are not helping you make you arguments. There are many different substances one can consume to become intoxicated, and not all of them will cause people to act as alcohol will. Your failure to understand or acknowledge that is causing me to become almost dismissive of your posts in this thread, as it seems clear that you have already reached conclusions about this situation, even though you seem to have no actual experience (or understanding) of factors (which many find painfully obvious) at play in this situation.

I never specified alcohol in my observations. I pointed out he could clearly enunciate, string words together in a coherent manner, interact with people, and demonstrate good motor coordination.

@Snowboarder_Bo

Magiver, perhaps your interpretation of events is correct. Can you give times on the video of when the guy did something that showed, clearly, that he was seeking attention from the crowd, and enjoying it when he received it? Since you said he was “getting the attention he obviously was looking for” it should be easy for you to provide some instances in the video that show this. Then I’ll watch the video again, and maybe be convinced, at the least, that you are watching the same video as the rest of us.

He clearly gets satisfaction from defiantly throwing his clothes and it’s to the cheers of the crowd. Since it’s done repeatedly, and with the friendly interaction of the crowd (guy brings him water, woman shakes his hand) he is soaking up the attention given him.

[Magiver]

@Kobal2

So in order to not cause him some pain, giving him the worst pain in his life is justified ? You can’t be serious.

Not what I said. I said you can’t wrestle him down the way they were doing without causing him pain. If you read my earlier comment I suggested a different approach when multiple officers are available.

[XT]

Before this reaches zombie status thought I’d link in the article mentioned earlier in the thread from Cecil on the subject:

Cecil replies:

News a little slow getting up to Calgary, Dugie? Lots of people have died after being Tasered — which is not to say they were necessarily Tasered to death. According to a widely publicized Amnesty International study last year, 334 people in the U.S. plus 25 more in Canada died between 2001 and 2008 after being zapped with a Taser by cops. The Taser’s defenders say it beats shooting people and reduces the risk of stray bullets injuring bystanders. Wrong argument, says AI. The Taser isn’t a replacement for guns but rather for billy clubs and such — for a lot of cops it’s become the default method of subduing the unruly. OK, getting whupped upside the head in the old days wasn’t a pleasant experience, but at least it didn’t involve 50,000 volts.

Does it get worse than that? Taser fans say no. TASER International, maker of the device, compiled a database of reports on Tasered human subjects from 1999 to 2002, which paints a rosy picture, claiming a few minor injuries and no deaths over 34 months. A defense department study found the rate of severe injuries was only 0.6 percent, and police departments have claimed significant reductions in injury rates to both officers and suspects.

Amnesty International tells a different story, one that leaves lingering questions. Alarming as a death toll of 359 sounds, it turns out to be difficult to tie them all to the Taser jolt. AI admits as much: “Amnesty International’s review is not a scientific study, nor is the organization in a position to reach conclusions regarding the role of the Taser in each case.” What struck me when I reviewed the deaths was how few the medical examiner thought were directly attributable to the Taser. In the huge majority of cases, drugs, alcohol, and/or poor health were cited as contributing factors.

Are MEs just covering up for the cops? Maybe, maybe not. Medical journals speak of “sudden in-custody death syndrome,” which is enough to spike anybody’s BS meter. However, some experts insist that physical restraint that isn’t in itself lethal can combine with factors like heart disease and stimulant use to cause a hyperagitated state and often death in someone resisting arrest. And that’s without Tasers in the picture; add a zap or two and it’s hard to say exactly what’s doing the victim in. One study of Taser-coincident deaths from 2001-’05 showed more than half the victims had cardiovascular disease, more than 75 percent were on illegal drugs, and close to 90 percent were on some sort of stimulant (including caffeine) at the time of death. Research has found police often use Tasers when a suspect is out of control and apparently under the influence — exactly, the theory goes, when the risk of SICDS is high.

The conclusion?

Let’s put the issue squarely. Amnesty International tells of officers Tasering schoolchildren, pregnant women, the elderly, etc — these jamokes should be fired. But often cops have to get the cuffs on some raving lunatic they can’t just leave walking the streets. Almost any sublethal method of persuasion carries risks. Pepper spray can cause potentially fatal reactions, police dogs can do serious damage, plastic and bean-bag bullets can kill. Nightsticks and choke holds I don’t need to tell you about. Tasering the guy presents a non-negligible chance you could kill him. But what do you do instead?

Anyway, just thought I’d post it in case anyone from the thread missed the new article.

-XT

[Martin_Hyde]

@Cisco

In defense of the knee-drop, he wasn’t doing it for his jollies; it’s a relatively harmless technique used to get someone to turn over. The mind-boggling thing is that it worked, but for some unfathomable reason all 3 cops–their powers combined-- still couldn’t cuff him. I’d rather take 20 of those knees in a row than 3 seconds of tasing, which carries some random chance of death just as an added bonus on top of sucking hairy, shit-stained goat asshole.

An overweight man knee dropping you has a chance of rupturing an internal organ. High School wrestling has an injury rate of 2.4 per 1,000 athletes, and high school wrestling matches are constantly being observed by at least two coaches, a referee, and there are rules about what you can and cannot do designed to protect the wrestlers. In the streets, with a cop slamming your head into the pavement and dropping a knee onto your neck, there are few rules and no one is there to blow a whistle and stop the scuffle.

I have no idea if tasers are more dangerous than physically subduing someone. I also do not believe there is sufficient evidence for anyone else to know this, either.

The taser in my opinion has become popular for two reasons:

1. Police departments are almost universally impacted by the realities of politics and the political climate. The men who run these departments don’t like egg on their face or being embarrassed on the 11 o’clock news. Throughout the 1960s-1990s police “beatings” and police “brutality” set off lots of riots and media uproars, both nationally (like with Rodney King) and also on a local level. Physical confrontation between a suspect and the police never looks pretty, and is always a potential for media scrutiny and embarrassment. I think the taser was initially viewed as a less offensive and brutal means of subduing someone. Less brutal equates to less susceptible to being torn apart on the nightly news.

2. The companies that produce these devices have very good marketing and sales teams. I think the taser companies have definitely done a lot to inflate the value of a taser to police departments, and I also think a larger part of the reason for taser “tests” of officers is so the taser companies can document these tests and use them as evidence as to how safe their devices are. [Again, I have no idea how dangerous or safe the use of a taser is in comparison to other methods, but I don’t see enough evidence to convince me that anyone knows.]

I think issues like officer/suspect safety come in distance 3rds and 4ths to the above two, as reasons for the implementation of tasers.

I wouldn’t be surprised if, in response to all the outrage over taser use you see their use curtailed, which will simply lead to more physical altercations between officers and non-compliant suspects.

The simple truth of the matter is police officers are people who are doing a job, and most people who are doing a job don’t like to get in trouble with their boss. The way this country works, a police officer who is called to the scene of a drunk naked guy can’t just drive off. In other countries being drunk and naked in public may not be a crime, maybe free range fucking isn’t, either. But in the United States most municipalities do not allow you to fuck or run around drunk and naked in public. We could have a debate about such ordinances–but keep in mind cops don’t create the laws. If the cops had been called to the scene of a drunk and naked guy and said “well he’s not hurting anyone, we’ll go on and solve all those rapes and murders people are always giving us shit about” and the guy died a few hours later due to an overdose or because he walked out in front of a semi-truck the cops would be vilified and sued.

It’s really a no win situation for police, because they have to take the guy in when there is a situation where he is refusing to stop breaking the law. They aren’t allowed to just waive it off because his offense is an innocuous misdemeanor, the police do have leeway in terms of what they can and cannot enforce, but a drunk naked person in public–who they have most likely been alerted to because of an official requirement that they be present and enforce order at that concert or because the property owners called them isn’t one of those “optional” enforcement scenarios. When someone has to be arrested, if they resist arrest it is always going to get ugly. Sure we can say tasers are the worst thing ever, that we’d rather be beaten with a baseball bat filled with rusted nails before we’d be tasered and et cetera but ultimately anytime you’re forcing someone to physically do something they don’t want to do, it looks ugly on camera.

[TwistofFate]

@Una_Persson

You have a different interpretation of the video. But it doesn’t matter.

I’m personally much more bothered by the “knee drop” the one officer does than the tasing.

Bingo. this was the point where the police went wrong.

While he wasn’t complying with officers, he only actively starts resisting arrest (and I’m not sure he was actually willfully resisting anything, more likely his body and drug altered mind (if indeed he was on drugs, it’s assumed he was) reacted ho a not inconsiderable weight being dropped onto his chest knee first. They would have had no reason to taser him if that hadn’t happened.

[BrandonR]

I saw this video a while back and I still can’t believe how many people take the naked wizard’s side. I’ve seen a LOT of videos of police abusing their power but they were completely justified in this video.

They attempted reasoning with him SEVERAL times and told him he just had to put his clothes back on and they would leave him alone. Not only does he not comply, he resists arrest. Once you resist arrest and start fighting back, you pretty much forfeit the severity of the crime you were committing in the first place.

And please. You get zapped with a taser and you feel fine a few minutes later. Are some of you people actually suggesting that they should have used brute force only and gave the guy bruises and other injuries that are going to last MUCH longer? Get real.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Magiver

I never specified alcohol in my observations. I pointed out he could clearly enunciate, string words together in a coherent manner, interact with people, and demonstrate good motor coordination.

All of the things you describe (or their impairment) are associated with alcohol use, but are not associated with other, common, recreational drugs. You do not seem to understand that different drugs have different effects, and so your argument that he was rational carries little to no weight with many of us.

He clearly gets satisfaction from defiantly throwing his clothes and it’s to the cheers of the crowd. Since it’s done repeatedly, and with the friendly interaction of the crowd (guy brings him water, woman shakes his hand) he is soaking up the attention given him.

The causality and chain of events you describe is unbelievably thin. I saw TNWG make no obvious “fuck yeah!” expressions, moves (raising his arms to incite the crowd, etc.), or words that would lead me to believe TNWG was soaking up attention or reveling in it. Your cite that a guy brought him water and a woman shook his hand as evidence that he was getting “satisfaction” or “soaking up the attention given him” are laughable. 2 people spoke to him so “obviously” TNWG is enjoying the attention? That’s just crazy talk. No evidence or reaction by him like “thanks for the support; aren’t these cops dicks?”, just your say-so that since people talked to him, he “obviously” is enjoying the attention… :rolleyes: