Not to mention something like a “occurence per event”. It’s like a thread some time ago where it said that thousands of people were getting their fingers “damaged” by machinery, but if you ran the numbers, it was like 1 case in 10,000 per year and “damaged” was undefined. 1 in 100,000 events as complicated by other factors is a rather meaningless fear.
I have. I’ll take the bear tackling, submission holds, piling on AND a boot to the head before the tasing, thankyouverymuch.
Nevermind the very real health hazard, tasing is the worst pain I have ever felt in my life, and as I said elsewhere on this forum, I’ve been beat up quite a bit growing up. Tasing means 100% pain, everywhere at once. It doesn’t matter that it doesn’t last very long, nor that the pain goes from 100% back to almost zero instantly. While it lasts, it’s everlasting Hell (and yes, I know this sentence doesn’t seem to make sense. Get tased. You’ll figure it out.)
We’re not talking about mangled fingers. We’re talking about people dying potentially at the hands of a “non-lethal” device. Even a small amount of deaths is too many, imo, if they’re a direct result of something where the threat of death is supposed to be non-existent. Until that is the case, tasers should be used with the intent to kill.
No, running from a police officer “caused” his death. The taser was the agent of his death.
So by your own cite, 40 people in 7 years. How many during that period died as a result of physical contact with officers? How many officers died during physical contact with a suspect?
I don’t know–have any stats? And even assuming 40 deaths is the base number, that’s still far too many for a “non-lethal” device.
That’s beside the point–had he not been tasered, he would seemingly still be alive today. And do you think merely running from the police warrants death?
By that standard, cars are nothing but murder weapons and should only be used when your intent is to commit vehicular manslaughter.
And until you can demonstrate that tasering is more dangerous and/or life-threatening than getting the crap beat out of you by a number of cops, then you have no argument.
Here’s the lesson, folks : fuck your rights, including the right to live. Do what the guy, I’m sorry, do what the Sir with the badge says.
The lesson I learned was “don’t run from the cops, or do things that will irresistably compell you to run from the cops.”
How isn’t the inverse also true?
False analogy. I’m pretty confident cars weren’t designed primarily to non-lethally subdue a suspect.
His point is that 40 may be a lower number than occurs if you go through the non-taser method. Any shock (electrical or otherwise) to someone who has some medical issues is liable to kill them. For all we know, tasering might be produce fewer deaths than manhandling. The odds of dying at that exact moment without intervention might exactly equal 40 over that same period of time. If that’s the case, how do you attribute the death to the taser?
I understand his point, hence my asking if he had any stats, as I’d be curious for a comparison. All I know if I’ve heard a lot more about taser related deaths than I have hard from a direct result of police manhandling. Granted, that could be a media bias–I really have no idea.
The cops were in a no-win situation. They had tried reasonable force to handcuff him. He fought back and got back up on his feet. Now they had two choices - use more force, and this is a big guy, it’s going to take a lot of muscle, and somebody is going is going to get injured. And then the videos would be all over the internet of police brutality on an unarmed man. Or, choice number 2, use a taser. And the videos are all over the internet because they tasered an unarmed man.
He was going to have to be subdued physically. It was going to get nasty if the officers had to wrestle with him. I think they made the right decision.
Mostly based on who is bringing the argument, really. If I came in here complaining about how dangerous physical takedowns and restraint was in comparison to tasering, it would be upon my head to bring the numbers for both and compare them.
Neither tool was designed to kill a subject, so what’s your point? Neither tool is designed to kill, the car is demonstrably quite dangerous as well; if we have to pick one and declare that it should only be used with intent to kill becuase it seems to on occasion result in fatalities, who not pick the car?
I’ve looked for the numbers! I haven’t been able to find anything. I don’t know whether it’s improper search terms or what, but I have not been able to find any stats related to police manhandling (and no, I did not actually use that search term).
So right now, we have a number of at least 40 Taser-related deaths, and nothing as a result of manhandling. Maybe it’s just me, but my innate feeling is that it’s much more difficult to die as a result of physical restraint (as I would think it would take quite the excessive force in order to kill someone) than it is by having electricity course through you.
Why are you still clinging to this analogy? It’s not apt. Tasers were designed with one purpose: incapacitate a subject without killing them (at least that’s how they’re marketed). Cars were not. It doesn’t matter how much else they have in common, as that alone invalidates the analogy.
The lesson I learned was some cops are terrified of an unarmed naked man.
Biking through the country side is more dangerous than that guy was. If you’re afraid of man who clearly doesn’t have any [del]possible concealed weapons[/del] anything to hide then you shouldn’t be a cop.
OK, having watched the video, it was clearly, unmistakably and unquestionably a no taser situation. He’s not struggling. He’s not belligerent. He’s not resisting arrest. He’s not fucking fighting ! He’s just going on about how it’s all right in a lazy tongued, slurred drunk way. That’s it. The cops have absolutely no trouble getting him on the ground, one cop even does a knee drop on him…and ZAP. Painbuzzer time, because you don’t do what we tell you to.
At no point in the video are the cops in any danger. At no point is the guy violent, or even threatening to become so. The crowd isn’t threatening to become aggro on the cops. The size of his dick clearly isn’t a threat to the cops’ manhood - I’ve seen clits bigger than that. There just isn’t any justification whatsoever. It was just easier to tase him than going through the physical effort of cuffing him and hauling him away.
Which is what tasers are, most of the time : the easy way. And really, who cares if it causes unbearable pain and might just kill the subject ?
I’ve never been hit with a taser, but I have been shocked with varying voltages from millivolts to over 120v 60hz (AC), including some mild 208 3-phase zaps, and I can concur with Kobal2’s description and his preference for takedown techniques.
Just because it doesn’t leave a mark doesn’t make it okay.
WOOPS! I hit the Submit button instead of Preview before I was done. 
I was gonna add:
Electrical shock induced for prolonged periods is absolutely the most painful, most excruciating thing I have ever felt, and I’ve been seriously injured more than most people. I know what burns, broken bones, slashed livers, concussions, sprains, cracked teeth, pierced eardrums, fallen arches, an anguinal hernia and torn MCLs & ACLs feel like, and a host of other injuries (an incurable love of risk-taking takes its toll eventually, eh) and I’d rather go thru any of them again than get shocked by a taser.
The thing I don’t like about tasers re: police use is that it makes it too easy for the officer to be lazy. Negotiation skills are the best tool a cop can bring to the job, and this man could have been removed from the premises without the taser, without the gratuitous knee drop, and without a video even needing to be viewed except for the “fucked up naked wizard dude” laugh factor.
Again, I’ve never tried to do this myself. But I find it mind-boggling that when they first start putting him in cuffs they do it apparently so lackadaisically that this drugged-out and naked creampuff keeps wriggling out without breaking a sweat or getting out of breath. And the second most mind-boggling thing is that after Speed Willy’s been on the ground for like a minute, and just after one cop drops a knee on his chest, they let him go! Whoops. He’s free of them, and then they start pulling out the toys. This just looks like crappy policing to me.
I’ve lived in some dicey urban areas, and those cops knew how to deal with a belligerent who’d forgotten the rules of engagement. It was over before you knew it started.
I feel sorry for the guy, but not for being tased.