So just because the amount of taser-involved deaths is “miniscule” compared to some other arbitrary statistic means the numbers are not meaningful?
Ugh. Make that “as little violence as possible”.
No…it’s meaningful, but a bit of perspective is in order. The actual threat/abuse is being blown out of proportion. There is no huge taser menace here. People are going to get hurt by police officers regardless of the tools used…it’s the nature of the job and the nature of the tools necessary to do the job. And this leaves aside the fact that cops, being human, are going to occasionally abuse their positions, be to harsh, be abusive, etc etc.
If you take the tasers away then either more people are going to get hurt or there will be perceptions of abuse by whatever tool replaces the taser. Someone up thread mentioned throwing a tarp over the nude drunk guy…or tackling him. Let’s think about both of those for a sec.
What are the odds that if they had thrown a tarp over this drunk and disoriented guy that he might have suffocated? Thrown up and choked to death? Panicked with fatal consequences? Same with these three big cops tackling him? Almost anything you can think of that the cops COULD have done to subdue this guy could have had serious or even fatal consequences.
Same with the taser. It’s not a 100% safe tool. But, compared to the alternatives it seems pretty damn safe to me given the small number of people hurt or killed. Is there a potential for abuse? Yup…just like there was abuse when the cops used to use rubber hoses and hand cuffs. But looked at in perspective the tool is about as safe as I think it’s possible to get, realistically.
-XT
:smack:
I had already written a response before scrolling down. When I saw it I totaly got the refference but didn’t notice it was the same guy I had just quoted.
I guess that’s one more reason to use the multiquote button instead of copying and pasting into notepad. 
Excruciating pain was the bare minimum force needed for a nonviolent naked guy?
Really?
Explain.
Well, that depends on how you define “menace.”
Sixfold increase! That is six-times the amount of people who would have otherwise needlessly died. But that’s in the past–let bygones be bygones and all that jazz, right? Let’s see what’s happened since.
Hey, cool! We’re almost back down to the pre-taser death rate! That wouldn’t be such a bad thing if they weren’t intended as alternatives to lethal weapon use. Unfortunately, “in this first year, the use of the stun guns, the most popular of which is Taser (Taser International, Scottsdale, AZ) did not reduce the rate of firearm-related deaths, despite the devices being marketed as an alternative for reducing the use of lethal force.” (Taser Use and Deaths)
But the unnecessary amount of deaths in the first year of taser use per department and the fact that they’re not displacing primary firearm usage aside, that’s still not my primary beef with the devices. Instead, it seems they’re frequently being used in situations where they’re completely uncalled for, and not just in the case with the wizard.
This is what frightens me; they’re being used as tools to force coercion, not just against unharmed naked wizards, but also against people who are not actually breaking the law. Instead, in this example, it was used because the police officer was pissy that he was being (legally) filmed, and countered by preventing the victim use of his own body.
I do not like tasers. I do not like the fact that they cause people to lose complete control of their central nervous system, particularly when they may not have done anything to warrant it. It makes it far too easy for the police to force compliance, when said force may not be necessary or warranted. It is not a tool I’m comfortable with the police having, as it’s been demonstrated some of them are incapable of using it responsibly.
Except the taser inflicts amazing, nearly incomprehensible levels of pain. Is resisting arrest a crime worth that level of pain?
Say I caught you jay walking and was all (with my underwear outside my pants) “halt, citizen you’re committing a crime! we must wait for the authorities to ensure your just punishment!” and you’re all “psh… what ever bro I’m going to go play pokemon!”*
Could I citizen arrest you for jay walking by tasering you to ensure compliance while we wait for a cop?
If not what’s the difference between me and the cop? We’d both be enforcing the law, and using the necessary force to.
You realize this wasn’t a 6 fold increase across the board, right? This was a 6 fold increase (if we trust the figures…again, I’d like to see some cites which the article doesn’t give) in California.
From your cite:
My emphasis. I’d like to see how they are measuring the stats and the raw data before I’m convinced this is true, but even assuming it is, this was for California only…we don’t know what effect, if any, there was across the board. And frankly, based on even the 400 deaths stat since 2001 in just the US and Canada I’m a bit skeptical…I don’t believe that pre-taser deaths were less than a hundred a year.
I can’t contact this site at all…I’m not a member. Again, I find it hard to believe though that the pre-taser death rate was less than 100 per year. We are talking about 400 people dead in the US and Canada in, what? A 6 year period (assuming this was 2001 to 2007)? That’s a really low death rate and frankly I’m not buying that it was less before tasers based on the cites you’ve provided thus far. In fact, I’m going to take some major convincing on this on.
While I probably tend to agree with you, looking at the stats it doesn’t seem that there is a lot of abuse going on here. There is always going to be some level of abuse regardless…but 400 deaths over 6 years? A couple thousand injuries over the same period? That seems remarkably low to me.
Of course, I grew up when there were pictures of cops using fire hoses and dogs on people, hitting them with billy clubs in the face, and rubber hoses on them in the lock up, so maybe I’m just looking at this differently.
I disagree, but I can understand your perspective on this. Myself, I’m much more comfortable with them having this tool than some of the alternatives. I don’t know of a better tool for the job to be honest.
-XT
I’ve been tasered, so I’m well aware of it. Like the water boarding thingy, been there and done that…back in the day they used to use this stuff as training tools in the military. While neither is something I’d do for kicks I have to say that neither is at the level of ‘incomprehensible levels of pain’…I’ve felt MUCH worse pain (though I have to admit…I REALLY hated the waterboarding thing). Hell, getting my teeth done was probably an order of magnitude worse on the pain scale…as was getting a cortozone shot in my knee and shoulder.
I have no idea what you think the point of this is, to be honest with you.
Er…because the police have the authority and the private citizen doesn’t? I’m trying not to be snarky here, but it’s the police officers JOB to maintain public order and enforce the law. That’s why they legally carry tasers, while most private citizens don’t.
-XT
What are the advantages of having Tasers as an option?
It seems that they have not decreased the number of deaths associated with the need enforce the law.
They instead seem to be used less as a replacement for lethal force than as a replacement for less dangerous but more ugly appearing or at least more exertional “nonlethal” force and, as Tasers look less ugly in use, more likely to be used than other “nonlethal” measures.
“Huge menance”? Seems not. But gaining anything other than wider use force with a very painful method of forced compliance? No one has offered any evidence that such is the case. (I am open to data that shows that police injury or death has been decreased by their ability to incapacitate a perpetrator, but none has been offered. And if that is the case then their use should be strictly limited to circumstances in which an officer reasonably believes that more traditional nonlethal means would place them at risk of serious injury. )
Clarification : I didn’t mean throw a tarp over him like a cartoon net, but draping one around his shoulders, like a toga, blanket or overcoat. As shackles go, it’s a pretty soft solution. Sorry if I wasn’t clear the first time around.
The weapon certainly has its upsides - it certainly beats a gun to subdue a violent and armed* perp. But IMO, its proper use needs to be precisely codified and its abuse penalized. It’s a weapon that’s not intended to be a “do as I say device”. Right now, they’re still in a very hazy legal zone. And it’s a trivial conclusion that abuse will continue as long as abuse isn’t punished.
With great power should come great lawsuits when you’re wielding it like a jerkass. AFAIK, no verdict of “unlawful tasering”, “electrical brutality” or “assault with a non-deadly weapon” has ever been issued in a case where the hapless victim didn’t die as result - and even those have been deemed accidents. Some checks and balances would be swell. A cop should be forced to think long and hard before deciding to overload someone’s internal wiring.
ETA : *armed with a half brick, knife or bat I mean. Obviously if the criminal has a gun, a taser will probably not do the trick.
It gives the police a non-lethal or less-lethal option that also allows them to subdue people without physical contact.
Perhaps you feel this has been demonstrated…I’m having a hard time believing it given the figures on deaths and injuries and the lack of substantial cites backing up this claim.
Hitting someone in the head with a billy club would, at a guess, be more than simply ugly looking. And this leaves aside the physical contact angle. When you hit someone in the head (or elsewhere) with a billy club they tend to bleed. These days the friggin school nurse at my sons school puts on rubber gloves when he gets a scrape on his knee.
What alternatives do you suggest?
-XT
And just for clarification here…on the first page of this thread I agreed that, based on the video provided in the OP that the use of a taser in this instance may not have been warranted…in fact, I don’t think it was. I think it could have been handled better, though as I said up thread I think the cops simply didn’t know what to do with the guy.
I’m simply responding to those who are claiming that the taser is disproportionally dangerous. Based on the stats I’ve seen thus far I’d have to say it’s safer than…well, just about anything I can think of. 60-70 deaths a year in the US and Canada? I think there are consumer products that are more deadly.
-XT
I’m confused by this. About on par with, I could see, provided my cites above…but safer than just about everything? The amount of in-custody deaths (even ignoring the first year, where there was a significant increase) has not been reduced since tasers have been introduced. Admittedly, that is just in California, but I don’t know why you’re so quick to dismiss those numbers, as I can’t think of any reasons to expect the numbers to differ significantly elsewhere.
So your cite states…but I haven’t seen any independent confirmation from what I would consider a reliable source (say, the State of California’s own records, or a study by a reliable source where the sourced data is available for independent confirmation).
Even if we agree that your cite is 100% correct I see no reason to extrapolate that to every other state (and Canada)…California has some rather unique law enforcement problems and challenges, as well as a rather large and diverse law enforcement arm (thus they are going to have a very large sample size).
From your cite:
This was all I could find in the link at the bottom:
-XT
UCSF isn’t reliable?
Well I’ll be honest. I haven’t been tasered. I have however accidentally touched a live capacitor in a faulty computer PSU. The exact sensation I remember was focused white hot throbbing pain. So when I read people describing being tasered as “the worst pain felt all over their body” (paraphrasing) I kind of put two and two together and think that’s true.
I have felt pain. I once pulled a rusty nail straight out of my foot. It nearly impaled it; so deep the tip was denting the top of my foot. I just sat down and pulled it out. Many years before that they pulled a pin out of my knee from when my broken leg was in a splint. The “anesthesia” didn’t actually put me out or block the pain. I took a baseball in the fruit basket once too. I’d pick all three of those at once over touching another capacitor though.
That said you don’t strike me as dishonest. So I don’t know.
What this thread needs is some hard data on typical tasering pain responses in comparison to other events. Ima start a GQ thread in a second.
It’s a hypothetical. The question it poses is enforcement of the law justification for any level of force necessary to that end?
Exactly! They’re given power to enforce the law for the good of the public, and no other reason. Is a nonviolant naked man that much of a threat to the public? If so what exactly about him poses the threat? Is the aggregate good of the public served by tasering a peacefully resisting naked man?
I once gave a cop an earful because he put me in cuffs because I forgot my drivers license. I was not happy about that. If the cop ordered me to be quiet, and I would have refused that order as pissed as I was, would I have deserved a tasering?
It’s true, he’s pretty ripped, which in the end is his fault anyway. In any event the blame does not shift from the dude to the cops as dude’s blood alcohol level rises.
Excellent! I call bullshit on your reasoning, you agree, and then try and re-write and revise your reasoning to fit the conclusion you so badly want. But if you agree that he is so inebriated he is incapacitated, how you can hold him entirely responsible for events that, since he is incapacitated, are obviously completely and utterly NOT in his control?
No idea to be honest. AFAICT UCSF only provided the grant. Looking that the study though it seems pretty casual to me…and I haven’t been able to google up any additional studies confirming the results which strikes me as…odd. Given the subject and the supposed findings you’d think there would be several independent studies to confirm the results. I might just be missing the additional studies though.
I’m just naturally skeptical of making such broad claims using surveys on what seem pretty subjective questions like ‘1) in-custody sudden deaths in the absence of lethal force, (2) lethal force (firearm) deaths, and (3) officer injuries (OIs) requiring emergency room visits’ sent to a sample of police and sheriffs departments. I mean, they used a survey format to get the data, but then used an entirely different source as a control (‘To control for population size and crime rates, we used total annual arrests per city as reported to the Department of Justice’) which strikes me as a bit odd too…although I guess having an independent control makes sense. But I guess it’s the survey aspect that I’m a bit leery of…and the fact that it seems so subjective, especially in light of the conclusions being drawn.
YMMV but I’d like to see independent confirmation of these conclusions. They seem counter intuitive to me, especially given the actual numbers of deaths we are talking about here.
-XT