# The Team Makes the QB, not Vice-Versa **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** football-nfl\ **Created:** [February 10, 2025, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129 "2025-02-10T13:01:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2025, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129/21 "2025-02-11T20:55:58Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > If they also had Reid, yes, they’d have 2-3 Super Bowls. “Ditka [alone] vs. the Giants? OK. score, gentlemen?” “After the heart attack, I gotta say Ditka 17, Giants 14.” [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/B9NO24hbe8Q/maxresdefault.jpg "Bill Swerski’s Superfans: Bears vs. Giants - SNL") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9NO24hbe8Q) ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2025, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129/22 "2025-02-11T23:30:08Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > > [@Jasmine](#): > > > > I agree, and the Bears have also proved that true. If Mahomes had been drafted by the Bears, does anyone think he’d have 3 Super Bowl titles? Even one? He’d more likely be nervous, neurotic, or even physically hobbled by now. > > If they also had Reid, yes, they’d have 2-3 Super Bowls. Right. The pre-Reid Chiefs were 2-14 in 2012. He turned it around, going 11-5, 9-7, 11-5, and 12-4; all without Mahomes. Adding Mahomes made a very good team great, but he wasn’t the only reason it happened. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2025, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129/23 "2025-02-12T13:04:20Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > If they also had Reid, yes, they’d have 2-3 Super Bowls. Perhaps, but we don’t and have never had any offensive mind like him, so your statement is not germane to my point. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2025, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129/24 "2025-02-12T13:12:22Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > The Chiefs entered the game 17-2. Are we going to pretend that they had a poor support system for Mahomes? In The Game™? Yes we are. ---
**Author:** ![FS65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea666f/32.png) [@FS65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FS65)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2025, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129/25 "2025-02-18T17:11:03Z")
But do yourself a favor and look up Bill Belechik’s head coaching record WITH and WITHOUT Brady! Spoiler alert: He was WAY BETTER WITH BRADY! I believe he had a LOSING RECORD WITHOUT HIM! ---
**Author:** ![FS65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea666f/32.png) [@FS65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FS65)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2025, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129/26 "2025-02-18T17:12:21Z")
82-98 - According to 2 sources Belichick has a record of just **82-98** without Brady as his quarterback after the 2023 NFL season. Insane. And Belichick is considered BEST COACH EVER by MANY ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2025, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129/27 "2025-02-18T17:28:36Z")
His overall record is 333–178 so, when he had the thoroughbred he needed at QB, he produced big time. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129/28 "2025-02-20T04:26:04Z")
What great coach is great without a high tier quarterback, though? It’s not that Belichick’s quarterbacks have been “not Tom Brady.” They’ve legitimately been not good. What coach has a better winning record than Belichick with quarterbacks who are bad? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129/29 "2025-02-20T06:49:16Z")
> [@FS65](#): > > But do yourself a favor and look up Bill Belechik’s head coaching record WITH and WITHOUT Brady! Spoiler alert: He was WAY BETTER WITH BRADY! I believe he had a LOSING RECORD WITHOUT HIM! It cuts both ways, you know. - Brady’s winning percentage with Belichick: 77.3% - Brady’s winning percentage without Belichick: 64.0% ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129/30 "2025-02-20T12:33:51Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > It cuts both ways, you know. > > - Brady’s winning percentage with Belichick: 77.3% > - Brady’s winning percentage without Belichick: 64.0% 64% is still virtually 2 of every 3 games, which is double digit win seasons. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129/31 "2025-02-20T15:05:29Z")
Oh come on. How about comparing season totals: Belichick as HC: Total with Brady - 17 winning, 1 losing, 17 playoffs & 6 SB victories. Without Brady (Browns, 00,07,20-23 Pats) - 3 winning, 8 losing, 2 playoff appearances. Brady: With Belichick - 17 winning, 1 losing, 17 playoffs & 6 SB victories Without Belichick - 2 winning, 1 losing, 3 playoffs, 1 SB victory. Yeah, each was better with the other, but Brady was MUCH better solo than Belichick. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129/32 "2025-02-20T15:43:20Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Yeah, each was better with the other, but Brady was MUCH better solo than Belichick. Granted, but Brady is clearly the GOAT, so he is an exception to many things. I don’t want to split hairs on this subject. I just feel that the QB gets too much praise and/or too much blame in many cases, and that has a lot to do with me being a Bears’ fan. When the Bears got Jay Cutler from Denver, no less a legend than John Elway said he thought it was the best trade the Bears ever made. So, what did the Bears do? They gave him five OCs in five years and had a crap offensive line for virtually the same amount of time. What did many if not most of the fans do? They dumped on Cutler mercilessly. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129/33 "2025-02-20T16:36:03Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Belichick as HC: > Total with Brady - 17 winning, 1 losing, 17 playoffs & 6 SB victories. That only losing season (2000) Brady was rookie that played in one game, with 3 passing attempts. Bledsoe started all 16 games. I think you can count that as a season without Brady. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129/34 "2025-02-20T16:55:03Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > What great coach is great without a high tier quarterback, though? Joe Gibbs. Theismann was a name, but not necessarily a star. He was basically a .500 QB until 1982. Mark Rypien was a nobody. Doug Williams was a nobody. Washington’s other main QB’s during that era were Jay Schroeder and Stan Humhpries. Schroeder had started most of the games during Doug Williams’ SB year, and Humphries did most of his damage with the Chargers. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129/35 "2025-02-20T17:04:12Z")
Actually I had the 2000 season already counted as a losing season without Brady. I messed up my table, I wrote down 7-9 for the 2002 season, but it was actually 9-7. So with Brady, 18 winning, 0 losing, 17 playoffs (2002 the only year they missed), 6 SB victories. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129/36 "2025-02-20T17:09:29Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > So with Brady, 18 winning, 0 losing, 17 playoffs (2002 the only year they missed), 6 SB victories Yes, and when Brady missed the playoffs, the Patriots were 11-5. Only one other team ever missed the playoffs at 11-5, and that was Denver when they lost the tie breaker to the Jets and New England in 1985. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129/37 "2025-02-20T17:15:55Z")
No, they missed the playoffs with Brady in 2002 when they went 9-7. They missed the playoffs in 2008 at 11-5, but that was with Matt Cassell - Brady tore his ACL in week 1. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129/38 "2025-02-20T17:24:02Z")
Ah, okay. Poor Matt. His great fill in performance went for naught. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129/39 "2025-02-20T17:29:59Z")
A great QB can make a mediocre O-line look good in a regular season, but every coach would rather have a great O-line and a mediocre QB come play offs. It’s not even a secret, look at the comparable deals they get. Just a few minutes drafting a team on Madden will tell you if you are in the NFL and want to get paid be a big dude on the line, either offense or defense. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2025, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129/40 "2025-02-20T17:54:14Z")
Yeah good call. I think Gibbs probably sits alone atop that mountain. Was Terry Bradshaw good among his peers? Maybe Chuck Knoll or Tom Coughlin get mentioned in the conversation but Gibbs is next level. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-team-makes-the-qb-not-vice-versa/1014129.md?page=3)