# The Ten Commandments...in Michigan Schools...Argh. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 18, 2000, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083 "2000-04-18T22:10:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mrblue92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@mrblue92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrblue92)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083/21 "2000-04-20T05:12:00Z")
Note to self: Re-read _before_ you post not after… of course. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083/22 "2000-04-20T05:39:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by TVeblen: > No child, Jewish, Hindu, or whatever, should EVER have to feel excluded in a secular educational setting. And for those who promote the 10 Commandments; exactly how far will your principles extend for postings from the Torah, Koran, etc.? Veb; I’m with you! I seriously doubt those in favour of posting their version of faith’s essential document would care to see the Koran’s admonition that they “speak of God what [they] know not.” What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![beakerxf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@beakerxf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beakerxf)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083/23 "2000-04-19T18:12:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by mrblue92: > \*\* But back to the OP… The entire issue is more one of teaching ethics to our children. The Ten Commandments fiasco is simply a religious backlash in response to the recent school shootings. Do people really think that having them posted in classrooms will have a positive effect on student behavior? Do Bibles in hotel rooms prevent infidelity? I agree it isn’t much of a deterent. It’s obvious that these legislators and their supporters aren’t thinking things through. It’s also been mentioned here that most of the Commandments don’t apply to school children. Any parent who wants to instill religious virtue in his child can easily do it through attending church and family study of the bible. If the schools want to take the band-aid approach they could easily avoid a whole lotta fuss if they just took some of the commandments (eg. lying, stealing, killing) and made them into school mottos or promises. Just state them in different language. Such as “we promise not to steal” or something along those lines. Then also throw in others that are more applicable to children, such as sharing, cooperation, etc. Using the Ten Commandments is just political posturing. > [@](#): > > I believe in the Bible, but I think it’s just as bad cramming the Ten Commandments down students’ throats as it is teaching that Big Bang -\> Abiogenesis -\> Evolution is absolute fact.\*\* Hmmmmmm, perhaps my school was the exception to the rule, but I recall quite clearly (this being the early 1990s) that we first learned the difference between “theory” and “fact”. That the Theory of Evolution and the Theory of the Big Bangs were just possible scenarios. The textbooks we used also mentioned the fact that none of these beliefs were concrete and that with each passing year new evidence comes to light and the theories have to be adjusted. So it was my understanding that schools didn’t teach them as fact. Then again, I disagree with the position of Kansas where Creationism is taught alongside of Evolution. That’s what Sunday school is for. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083/24 "2000-04-19T18:29:00Z")
**John Corrado** , I think I have just been a victim of relying too heavily on memory and High School teachers. Fr. Grandpre made it a point, when we were discussing religious freedom in the colonies, to make sure that we didn’t come away smugly thinking that “at least the Catholics practiced tolerance.” He alluded to a fight to grant Jews some sort of equality and noted that it was rather bitter. Now that you have (correctly) challenged me, I have discovered that the fight over Jewish rights in Maryland was a separate battle fought from 1818 to 1826 by a Thomas Kennedy to remove language in the Maryland Constitution that restricted voting rights to Christians. The corrected version of my earlier post should not claim “persecution” of any Jews, particularly at the time of the original settlement. (I suspect that the original charter probably had restrictions on Jews, but those restrictions would have been the boilerplate restrictions that nearly all laws of the time had.) * * * Tom~ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083/25 "2000-04-19T18:35:00Z")
tomndebb said: > [@](#): > > John Corrado, I think I have just been a victim of relying too heavily on memory and High School teachers. No problem at all; my Maryland history was taught to me by someone who obviously felt that Maryland was the bestest state in the whole wide Union, so I wouldn’t have been surprised at a glossing over of a nasty unpleasantry (for example, the fight you describe was completely unmentioned in any of the classes I attended). And lest I seem to turn this Pit forum into a love-fest, let me add, “Fuck you, whomever thinks that merely posting the Ten Commandments will solve all of our problems, or at least solve more problems than it create. Or hell, those who think it will solve _any_ problems.” * * * JMCJ “Y’know, I would invite y’all to go feltch a dead goat, but that would be abuse of a perfectly good dead goat and an insult to all those who engage in that practice for fun.” -weirddave, set to maximum flame ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083/26 "2000-04-19T19:11:00Z")
I’ve said this before in another 10 Commandments thread, but it bears repeating: If you wanna post something in schools, whether for historical purposes or to teach morality, you’d do much better to post the Code of Hammurabi than the 10 Commandments. First, it’s the earliest example of a codified system of laws (you can just feel the history wafting off it!). Second, I’ll wager that “eye for eye, tooth for tooth, limb for limb, life for life” rules of punishment would have a greater deterrent effect than “thou shalt not kill.” ---
**Author:** ![mrblue92](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@mrblue92](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrblue92)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083/27 "2000-04-19T20:53:00Z")
> [@](#): > > The textbooks we used also mentioned the fact that none of these beliefs were concrete and that with each passing year new evidence comes to light and the theories have to be adjusted. Some do, some don’t–it all depends on which textbooks your public school uses and how the teachers present the subject. IIRC, my grade school textbooks said in no uncertain terms that the universe began 5-10 billion years ago from an explosion (and with no qualifications). Later on (in high school), they said 10-20 billion with minor qualifications. Our teachers generally ignored the subject, which IMHO is the right thing to do, as you can’t help but find out about the popular scientific theories anyway, much in the same way you find out about different religions… Those who desire knowledge will seek it out; those who dwell in ignorance usually won’t care what you try to teach them. This is a similar debate to the OP, but honestly I just wanted to correct the “In God We Trust” error, not argue pointlessly about the education system. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083/28 "2000-04-19T21:46:00Z")
> [@](#): > > The entire issue is more one of teaching ethics to our children. I’ll thank you very much to keep _your_ ethics off _my_ children, please. That’s my job. * * * Cecil said it. I believe it. That settles it. * * * Relax, I’m not as Dave as I look!- A Wallified sig! ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083/29 "2000-04-19T22:18:00Z")
What do you expect? Up here in Northern Michigan, several of the school boards have over-the-microphone, group prayers before each meeting. These are the people that are going to remain balanced on the issue? Hanging the TC in schools is a prime example of what politicians do best: offer up symbolic and meaningless solutions to truly complex issues on which they can provide no leadership. All hanging the Ten Commandments will do during the next school shooting is make it easier to clean the blood stains off one section of wall. * * * Give me immortality, or give me death! ---
**Author:** ![Persephone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@Persephone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Persephone)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2000, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083/30 "2000-04-19T22:24:00Z")
Notthemama: I posted here because I was genuinely pissed. You know what pisses me off even more? I haven’t read any newspaper articles about this. I found out about it because there was a little thing on the Editorial page of our local paper. They’re doing a phone poll of people’s opinions about this. No actual article, not even an editorial. Just a “This legislation has been introduced. Would you support it? Call this number.” And just so I can keep this in the pit for a little longer…those fucknuts. I can’t believe they’re actually going to try & pass this shit. * * * Cristi, Slayer of Peeps I made my husband join a bridge club. He jumps next Tuesday. (title & sig courtesy of UncleBeer and WallyM7!) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083/31 "2000-04-20T00:14:00Z")
I just looked over the link to the proposed amendment. The very first thing that struck me was that it looks like a roster of the Southwest Michigan legislators. I’ve been out of state too long to know anybody by name, but I’d guess that most of those guys are from Grand Rapids, Muskegon, Holland, Benton Harbor, Kalamazoo, and surrounds. (Maybe they’re trying to sneek it past Detroit and Flint with nobody noticing.) * * * Tom~ ---
**Author:** ![Persephone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@Persephone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Persephone)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083/32 "2000-04-20T00:41:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Maybe they’re trying to sneek it past Detroit and Flint with nobody noticing.) I can’t speak for Detroit, but there’s no need for them to try & sneak it past Flint. I live in Flint. All I read for days & days & days after the Kayla Rolland shooting was “we need to put God back in the schools.” People actually blamed this shooting on the fact that there is no prayer in the public schools. I didn’t recognize any of those names, either. But there’s more legislation. I’ll go back to that site & see if I can find a name I recognize. I hope I am unsuccessful. I do not want to see the names of anyone I voted for on any of this. Oh please, oh please, oh please. * * * Cristi, Slayer of Peeps I made my husband join a bridge club. He jumps next Tuesday. (title & sig courtesy of UncleBeer and WallyM7!) ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083/33 "2000-04-20T03:34:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by pashley: > > \*\*You idiots! \*\* We’ll see about that, boy… > [@](#): > > \*\*What law actually dictates the separation of Church and State? \*\* It’s something this country was founded upon. You see the Supreme Court’s job is to interpret the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and the Couts have always maintained that we have a “Wall of separation between the church and state.” > [@](#): > > \*\*The fact is the government has never passed a law implementing a “separation of church and state.” \*\* Those exact words apppear in many a Supreme Court ruling. > [@](#): > > \*\*If we look at the Ten Commandments, we’ll see that the first commandment is: \*\* We are not talking about the Ten Commandments. Nowhere in US law, which is what we are talking about, does it say, “refer to the Ten Commandments,” and unless you show me a document which says this, you cannot bring it up here. [quoe]\*\*If our founding fathers intended the separation we are now levied with would their earliest documents contain phrases like these… [/quote] \*\* Well, the Supreme Court - which makes these determinations - says differently than what you are saying. I think I’ll put my faith (har, har) in the hands of the people whose job it is to determine this, **not the hands of the website you obviously coped from verbatum without listing a source or cite, which is quite unethical.** > [@](#): > > \*\*Our founding fathers were religious men. \*\* Which means nothing, and in fact, if you look at how there were many different denominations present amongst them, and the fact that several were deists, this is evidence that they did NOT want the government messing with religion and vice versa. > [@](#): > > \*\*Over the years, the Supreme Court and lower federal courts have reinterpreted this amendment. \*\* Actually, it has maintained the same interpretation for some time now. > [@](#): > > \*\*In the 1940 ruling of Cantwell v. Connecticut, we see the Court’s first reinterpretation of the First Amendment, as it related to religion, and it went downhill from there. \*\* Wow. You are really wrong. But you know, at least you’re only wrong by 150 years! :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > In 1785, a proposal was made to tax citizens in order to pay Christian teachers. Somewhat surprisingly, many religious organizations opposed the bill. Presbyterian churches petitioned the legislature to leave them “free from the intrusive hand of the civil magistrate.” Rockingham County evangelicals wrote, “Any legislative body that takes upon themselves the power that never was committed to them by God, nor can be by man, [is dangerous].” Fundamentalists declared in their petition that “religion and all its duties being of divine origin and of a nature wholly distinct from the secular affairs of the public society ought not to be made the object of human legislation. For the discharge of the duties of religion every man is to account for himself as an individual in a future state and ought not to be under the direction of influence of any human laws.” In essence, though not using those precise words, they all argued for a separation of church and state. > > As a result of these responses, Virginia enacted the precursor of the First Amendment’s religion clauses in its Statute of Religious Liberty. Drafted by Thomas Jefferson and promoted by James Madison (who was the father of the Bill of Rights), the statute laid the foundation for our Constitution’s separation of church and state. Okay, seems easy enough, right? Well, you’ll probably whine about how the exact words “Separation of Church and State” don’t appear in any of this. Fine - homosexual is never mentioned in the Bible, you don’t seem to have a problem with drawing THAT conslusion. As for ther phrase itself: > [@](#): > > In 1802, Thomas Jefferson affirmed the church/state separation principle in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, in Connecticut. This important historical document sheds much light on Jefferson’s understanding of the First Amendment, written by his friend and close associate, James Madison. > > “Believing with you that religion is a matter which has solely between man and his God that he owes no account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.” > > “Every serious historian traces the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the events in Virginia in 1785,” according to Robert S. Peck, First Amendment attorney for the national ACLU, “which is why Jefferson’s characterization of the meaning of the First Amendment as establishing ‘a wall of separation between church and state’ has been taken to be so authoritative.” And here you will no doubt argue that a letter does not constitute a legal document! Well, go all the way back to 1848 and read Reynolds v. United States. In this decision, it says plainly, “In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishmen t of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between church and state.” Please note this is 100 years before the 1940 figure you claim. Also note that the words have appeared in other court cases since, including Everson v. Board of Education (1947), Lemon v. Kurtzman (1971) and Lynch v. Donnelli (1984). \*\* > [@](#): > > So now the first amendment seems to provide freedom from religion, instead of freedom of religion. \*\* The courts have rightly decided that there is no fair way for this to be one-sided. Also, the thing that prevents churches from being taxed is the Separation of Church and State. So you might want to kiss every Couts ass who decided that this was there, or your religioon would not be in the best of shape. I mean, the property taxes alone… > [@](#): > > \*\*But that’s not the whole truth either.  The result of all this is that we do have a national religion, it’s called Secular Humanism. \*\* So, something with the word “secular” in it is a religion? And a national religion at that, huh? Oh, and unlike you, the plageurizer, I will cite my source: [http://www.berkshire.net/~ifas/fw/9111/simonds.html](http://www.berkshire.net/~ifas/fw/9111/simonds.html) Anything else, now that the facts have gotten in your way? Or are you content just to call people “idiots” with a bunch of rhetoric which is not the truth on your side, and the falsehoods are directly lifted from sources you do not cite? * * * Yer pal, Satan [http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif](http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif) _TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING: One week, four days, 1 hour, 33 minutes and 0 seconds. 442 cigarettes not smoked, saving $55.32. Life saved: 1 day, 12 hours, 50 minutes._ ---
**Author:** ![Persephone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@Persephone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Persephone)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083/34 "2000-04-20T04:13:00Z")
> [@](#): > > If we ignore the trends then, one day, we may be asked to make a choice between the flag and the Bible. I can’t see this happening. Not in this country. We are a free people. If a government we elected tried to pull this kind of crap, we wouldn’t just try & get that government recalled. We’d have them drawn and quartered, and all religions (or non-religions) would be standing shoulder to shoulder, cheering them horses on. However, if the very worst happened, and the national uprising were defeated, and I were forced to choose, I would choose the flag. I do believe in a deity. But that is faith. The government is made up of flesh-and-blood human beings. My government does not have the power to tell me which religion to practice, but _I have the power to change which people run my government._ I haven’t looked at the rest of the bills yet. I had to take a short break. I’ll do that tomorrow. I swear, if I see the name of a congressperson that I voted for, I won’t vote for them again. I won’t I won’t I won’t! Satan & tomndebb: thanks for contributing to this. I was pissed off when I started this thread, but now that you guys have contributed some good, solid facts, I now know that my anger was entirely justified. * * * Cristi, Slayer of Peeps I made my husband join a bridge club. He jumps next Tuesday. (title & sig courtesy of UncleBeer and WallyM7!) ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083/35 "2000-04-20T05:10:00Z")
Okay, I’m returning to the fray, lacking appetite or skill for debate but foolishly compelled to weigh in anyway. Arguing precendent and historical intention has limits. The intellectual underpinnings of the country’s founders is prime fodder for doctoral disserations and The Supremes. (Think those black-robed Eminences sprang from nowhere? They just interpret basic principles forward into current reality–if we’re lucky.) Theories abound over “guiding principles”, followed by excruciating nitpicking over interpretations, precedents and historical clues. If we’re talking about “founding principles”, wander down the path of Masonic symbolism that survives even on our currency. On second thought, don’t. So through wonderful congruence a group of people fought their way, at terrible price and trembling, toward an IDEA for the future. They were landed, privileged (mostly) products of their own century who dreamed something damned wonderful. Okay, this is my bit of historical interpretation, but those visionaries would be collectively horrified at cast as deities. They were HUMAN, products of their time and environment, who nonetheless dreamed their past those limitations for CIVIL PRINCIPLES that would allow for growth. What is so damned _hard_ about this? IMO, they were true giants, and the lasting source of pride and love for my home. They were the architects of the (human) revolution that WORKED. But they transcended their time and based the revolution on an assumption of growth. No, the Founders wouldn’t personally embrace every change that’s cropped up in a few centuries. But they were wise enough, and humble enough, to reject the Prophet. They threw their hearts into the future and trusted that humankind would make the most of the chance. I dunno, but political puffing, posing and posturing mostly leaves me cold and disgusted. Somehow the prospect of using the full weight of social (and putatively legal) pressure on children whose families follow different faiths makes me nauseated and ashamed. The footnotes, precendents and archival record can be exhumed still doomsday. But anyone who exploits them should beware of violating the crucial essence of the icons they putatively venerate, and stand answerable to the real-life people those visionaries tried so desperately to serve. Imposing religion is WRONG, by direct or suble means. NO one should feel the slightest constraint or waste one passing moment on freedoms of heart, mind and soul. The real legacy is the civic guarantee for private ownership of self; the state is an expression of all those selves. Sorry. (Though actually, no, I’m not.) This is WORTH ranting and standing ground. Historically speaking ::wince:: this was the essence of the 60’s. Children, people, no one shouldn’t have to say one DAMNED thing to the State about faith or belief. And before anyone tucks me into convenient political slots, there was a time when conservative meant high-minded defense against bigotry. That was before conservative principle got co-opted into bigotry and opportunism by Reagan. Of course that was when the Goldwaters and McCains weren’t hobbled with fundie paranoids. Ok. That was a rant. But it’s a weakness; seeing kids, any kids, isolated and made civilly “other” in a damned SCHOOL makes my blood boil. I’m going away now. Veb ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083/36 "2000-04-20T13:12:00Z")
Pash: “What law?” Hah! LOL! Doesn’t the Constitution itself state that it is, in fact, “The Supreme Law of the Land.” Not even a nice try on your part. P.S. Thanks for the excellent point-by-point there, Brian. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083/37 "2000-04-21T05:59:00Z")
Bravo, Satan. I couldn’t have said it better myself. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083/38 "2000-04-20T18:18:00Z")
I realize that posting my rebuttal of pashley’s remarks may only be gilding the lily after Satan’s remarks, but I’m too much of a verbose, bellicose bastard to stop myself. Sorry. pashley said: > [@](#): > > But what about separation of church and state? > > If our founding fathers intended the separation we are now levied with would their earliest documents contain phrases like these: > “…WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness…” The Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776 > “…that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that > government of the people, by the people, for the people shall > not perish from the earth.” excerpt from Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address. > “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” The Pledge was first published Sept. 8, 1892, but the phrase, “under God”, was added by an act of Congress in 1954. > “In God we Trust” This motto was put on all paper currency by an Act of Congress in 1955 and was chosen as our national motto by an Act of Congress in 1956. > There are many other well known examples, and with a little research one will find personal writings, wills, etc., **that clearly demonstrate that our founding fathers were God fearing men.** Ah. I didn’t realize that Abraham Lincoln was a founding father. Nor that any of the members of Congress in 1952 had been part of the Constitutional Convention. No wonder we need term limits- these guys have been around for over 200 years! Point of fact- the only “founding father” quoted in this piece is Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson was a known deist (i.e., not Christian), and also _wasn’t even present at the Constitutional Convention_ (he was ambassador to France at the time, IIRC). In other words, you’ve quoted a lot of people- none of whom were the Framers- in order to decide upon what the Framers had in mind. pashley said: > [@](#): > > Robert L. Cord confirms this thought as he describes the true intention of the religion clause in the First Amendment: > > "Regarding religion, the First Amendment was intended to accomplish three purposes. **First, it was intended to prevent the establishment of a national church or religion, or the giving of any religious sect or denomination a preferred status.** And we are arguing that by placing the Ten Commandments in schools, the government is giving a preferred status to Judeo-Christianity; otherwise, it would also be posting Buddhist codes of conduct, etc. Thank you for proving our point. > [@](#): > > The goal was to create a nation influenced by Christianity, and to prevent a religion that was mandated and/ or influenced by the nation. An amazing logical deduction to make, given that it is _directly contradicted_ by the statement in front of it. “Prevent… the giving of any religious sect or denomination a preferred status” vs. “create a nation influenced by Christianity”. Finally, a question for you, pashley. Your argument is: The Founding Fathers were Christians, and established this country in part based upon Christian principles, therefore we must respect and accept Christianity as part of the state. To which I wil reply: The Founding Fathers were also slave-holders, and specifically wrote the Constitution to accept and be supported by slave-holders. Shouldn’t we therefore continue the practice of slavery as a respected and integral part of the state? * * * JMCJ “Y’know, I would invite y’all to go feltch a dead goat, but that would be abuse of a perfectly good dead goat and an insult to all those who engage in that practice for fun.” -weirddave, set to maximum flame ---
**Author:** ![Threll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Threll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Threll)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083/39 "2000-04-20T23:35:00Z")
look at this debate [http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001758.html](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001758.html) ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2000, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083/40 "2000-04-22T04:11:00Z")
Satan: > [@](#): > > not the hands of the website you obviously coped from verbatum without listing a source or cite, which is quite unethical. Satan, do you happen to know where Pash got this info? Because it’s not only unethical, it’s against SD rules. Lynn Queen of the Pit [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments-in-michigan-schools-argh/6083.md?page=3)