# The Ten Commandments? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments/220446 "2003-12-22T13:44:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments/220446/1 "2003-12-22T13:44:32Z")
I’ve been doing some reading lately and I came across the following interesting things, which I was hoping could be cleared up. In the bible, Exodus 20, God gives Moses the Ten Commandments-which I think most of us are familar with. Exodus 31:18 has God actually write and give the Commandments to Moses-although the commandments he writes on the tablets are different (see the preceding verses). Moses comes down from the mountain and gets ticked at his people, destroys the original ten. He goes back up the mountain, with new tablets for God’s signature (34:1), says that he’s going to write the exact same thing as on the first set of Ten Commandments and over the next chapter the commandments on the tablets are not the ones from Exodus 20. This leads me to believe one of two things (although there could be many more reasons): 1. What everyone thinks are the Ten Commandments, actually _aren’t_. 2. The bible is in error here. Personally, I chalk it up to number two-I’m no bible scholar though and I could be dreadfully wrong, so I’m bringing it here-to the Great Debates. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments/220446/2 "2003-12-22T14:07:26Z")
[Exodus 20](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=exodus+20&version=NIV) and [Exodus 34:1-27](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=EXOD+34:1-27&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on) for those interested in reading… Grim [sup]thoughts to follow[sup] ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments/220446/3 "2003-12-22T14:27:55Z")
Also, in the original Hebrew, is Exodus 20 labelled “The Ten Commandments”? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments/220446/4 "2003-12-22T15:18:09Z")
Immediately prior to entering the Holy Land, Moses does a review of the Law, with some additional instructions added in (the Shema comes from here), and that review, with back story, is the book of Deuteronomy. Very early on in that, God reiterates the Ten Commandments as Deut. 5:6-21. Again the wording varies slightly from the Exodus versions. Bottom line, though, is that the content is the same. It is as though a penal code had three criminalizations of murder, which differ in having different preambles (the outline of reasons for adopting a law) and one of which prohibits the murder of any man, woman, or child, while the other two say “man” (defined in the generic sense) and “person” respectively. The crime made illegal is the same, though the wording differs. ---
**Author:** ![RedNaxela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ad7895/32.png) [@RedNaxela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedNaxela)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments/220446/5 "2003-12-22T16:04:10Z")
**Meatros** , to answer your last question first: Exodus 20 is not labeled in the original Hebrew. However, Deut. 4:13 and 10:4 refer to “the ten commandments,” and the latter verse defines these as what G-d had announced to the nation on the “day of assembly.” So indirectly, that does label the commandments in Ex. 20 (and the slightly different recapitulation in Deut. 5) as _the_ Ten Commandments. The commandments in Exodus 31 all are connected with the building of the Tabernacle (except for the last few verses, which deal with the Sabbath; Jewish tradition understands this as meant to imply that even the work of building the Tabernacle - as important as it is - must be suspended in honor of the Sabbath). I’ve never seen any suggestion that these should be considered the Ten Commandments; an obvious reason why they are directly followed by verse 18 is that the entire previous section, chs. 25-31, describes (part of) what Moses was taught during his stay on the mountain, so chronologically the next thing is that at the end of this period G-d gave Moses the Tablets to bring down to the people. As for Ex. 34:11-26, that’s largely a restatement - in a different order - of Exodus 23:10-33. Some of the commentaries, then, explain that just as the first Tablets were given along with a body of supplementary laws (the “Book of the Covenant,” generally taken to be Exodus chs. 21-23), so too were the second set of Tablets. (In any case, it’s not easy to discern ten individual commandments in Ex. 34; Rabbi J.H. Hertz, in his commentary on the Pentateuch, observes that it takes some “arbitrary and baseless guesswork” to arrive at this number.) ---
**Author:** ![Zahava424](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/76d3ee/32.png) [@Zahava424](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zahava424)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments/220446/6 "2003-12-23T01:13:35Z")
If you read through, it’s more like ten statements or sentences. Depending on how you classify things, it’s really more like somewhere between 12 and 16 commandments. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments/220446/7 "2003-12-23T01:57:50Z")
Isn’t the second proclamiation, with all the funky commands like “all the firstborn are mine,” the strange business of punishing innocents for the crimes of their parents, and the revelation that God does not like yeast… the only one that’s actually in any way, even if indirectly, reffered to as the Ten Commandments? ---
**Author:** ![sleightofhand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@sleightofhand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleightofhand)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments/220446/8 "2003-12-23T16:37:10Z")
hey, just thought I’d point out that in Exodus 34 God is just speaking to Moses and giving him advice, not talking about the Ten commandments. (taken from the NIV Bible, please let me know if other versions differ) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments/220446/9 "2003-12-23T17:14:12Z")
Here is a collation of the Ten Commandments from the two main Biblical sources. Material from both Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5 is in black; material from Exodus only is in firebrick; and material from Deuteronomy only is in green. The King James Version is my source. > [@](#): > > And God spake all these words, saying, > > I _am_ the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of from the house of bondage. > > Thou shalt have none other gods before me. > > Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or [“or” is present in the original in Exodus, supplied in the translation of Deuteronomy] any likeness _of any thing_ that _is_ in heaven above, or that _is_ in the earth beneath, or that _is_ in the waters under beneath the earth; > > Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God _am_ a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth _generation_ of them that hate me; > > And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. > > Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him [“him” is present in the original in Exodus, supplied in the translation of Deuteronomy] guiltless that taketh his name in vain. > > Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee. > > Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: > > But the seventh day _is_ the sabbath of the Lord thy God: _in it_ thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that _is_ within thy gates, that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. > > And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and _that_ the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. > > For _in_ six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them _is_, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. > > Honour thy father and thy mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee: that thy days may be long upon prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. > > Thou shalt not kill. > > Thou shalt not Neither shalt thou commit adultery. > > Thou shalt not Neither shalt thou steal. > > Thou shalt not Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour. > > Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, norNeither shalt thou desire thy neighbour’s wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour’s house, his field, or his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that _is_ thy neighbour’s. Exodus 31:12-17 expands on the nature of the Sabbath. Exodus 34 expands on the “no other gods” and Sabbath commandments, and adds the three major feasts of Judaism. Neither is a true reproduction of the Ten Commandments. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments/220446/10 "2003-12-24T18:43:05Z")
The primary difference in the second five commandments between the versions in Exodus and Deuteronomy has been a point of quite a bit of commentary. (Then again, that holds for the entire Torah.) In Exodus, these commandments start out with _Lo’_, “No.” For instance, #6 is literally, “No murder.” In Deuteronomy, they each start _V’lo’_, “And no.” (Except of course for #6, which starts the list.) The general commentary of the version in Deuteronomy is that if a person violates one of those five rules of decent society, they are likely to follow it up by violating other rules. Coveting may lead to adultery; theft may involve murder; false witness can follow on to anything. Bill Clinton is a good example: He desired assorted women who were not for him; he committed sex acts outside of marriage with quite a few of them; and he lied under oath about it. ---
**Author:** ![raizok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4491bb/32.png) [@raizok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raizok)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments/220446/11 "2003-12-24T22:21:59Z")
I’ve always wondered about a system of punishment tagged onto the ten commandments. Like, if I break one, am I guaranteed to go to hell? Far as I know, not one person can live his/her’s entire life without comitting at least one of those sins. What differentates killing someone as opposed to just lying? Do both receive the same punishment or are there lesser forms of disclipine for some? Its always been a topic of discussion in our home, sadly no one could ever figure out the answers 😛 ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments/220446/12 "2003-12-24T22:32:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by raizok \* > \*\*I’ve always wondered about a system of punishment tagged onto the ten commandments. Like, if I break one, am I guaranteed to go to hell? Far as I know, not one person can live his/her’s entire life without comitting at least one of those sins. > > What differentates killing someone as opposed to just lying? Do both receive the same punishment or are there lesser forms of disclipine for some? > > Its always been a topic of discussion in our home, sadly no one could ever figure out the answers 😛 \*\* Well, from the Jewish POV, the Talmud exists to answer these very questions. First of all, in Judaism the concept of going to hell for one sin is alien. While Judaism certainly does believe in a hell, it is a place one goes for one’s punishments for the wrongs done in life and (except for the truly, truly evil) afterwards go on to their eternal reward for the good that they did in life. In the Jewish legal codes, there are different punishments for different crimes. Violation of some of the TC carry the death penalty. Others carry lesser penalties. Perjury carries the (highly appropriate, IMHO) opinion of “whatever punishment the other guy would have gotten.” Of course, keep in mind that in a Jewish court of law, the possibility of an actual DP being carried out was vanishingly small… to the extent that the Talmud calls a court that issues a death penalty once in seven years a “murderous court.” Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments/220446/13 "2003-12-25T03:20:54Z")
Hasn’t Deuteronomy been dated to–I want to say the first rebuilding of the temple, but I’m not sure. Anyway, isn’t Deuteronomy dated much later than Exodus and have something to do with the priests needing a further codification of the laws or something like that? My class was more than a year ago and all my books are in another state at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments/220446/14 "2003-12-25T04:06:00Z")
Deuteronomy’s internal _claim_, which is supported with great zeal by Orthodox Jews and conservative Protestant Christians, is to have been the report, presumably written by Moses, of the final stage in the exodus, with a final detailing of the Law offered as of the times each portion of it was supposedly given. (Joshua is on this reading believed to have composed the final few verses reporting the death of Moses.) The source theorists doing textual criticism attribute the vast majority of it to one of the four strands of tradition that were redacted together to constitute the Torah as we have it today, that strand not surprisingly being called the Deuteronomic tradition. Independently of these two concepts, II Kings 22 reports King Josiah of Judah giving orders to repair the Temple (which his apostate father and grandfather had neglected), and, beginning in v.8 the discovery of a book of the Law in the process. For several reasons having to do with the interrelationships between the Josian reforms and the text of Deuteronomy, it is believed that the book found was Deuteronomy. The textual critics note that Deuteronomy is written in the language of the last days of the Kingdom, and therefore speculate that it was either produced at that time or at least put into its current form at that time. If you feel cynical, you can hypothecate that the high priest had it written to cause the reforms he wanted, by its effect on King Josiah. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments/220446/15 "2003-12-25T07:54:27Z")
We Unitarian Universalists prefer to call them the “Ten Voluntary Guidlines.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments/220446/16 "2003-12-25T18:24:06Z")
Zev: > [@](#): > > to the extent that the Talmud calls a court that issues a death penalty once in seven years a “murderous court.” Wasn’t that once in _seventy_ years? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments/220446/17 "2003-12-26T14:33:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cmkeller \* > \*\*Zev: > > Wasn’t that once in _seventy_ years? \*\* It’s a _machlokes_ (dispute) in Sanhedrin. One opinion was once in seven years, the other was once in seventy. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![spogga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@spogga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spogga)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ten-commandments/220446/18 "2003-12-26T20:19:33Z")
I believe I have covered the ‘Ten Commandments’ in a thread in which I pitted God. No further discussion is needed.