# The term 'Oriental' and racism in general **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 4, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596 "2003-01-04T12:56:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596/21 "2003-01-04T18:25:33Z")
I think a case can be made to criticize the term “westerner”. (That is the opposite of “oriental” isn’t it?). My objection is that the term “westerner” suggesting a geographic identity that often ignores and thus excludes elements within that context, while appropriating populations that clearly further east than the orient! For example on this Islamic [site](http://www.submission.org/women/equal.html) we read: > [@](#): > > Every Westerner thinks that Islam is very chauvinistic and oppressive towards women. What? Are there no muslims in America??? Yet, Australians and New Zealanders are often described as westerners, and less often Japan jwhich is also described as oriental, and more appropriately so. So what defines a “westerner” or a “western country”? Is it affluence, wealth, religion/philosopy, political system of home country? The term is so vague and useless, and so subject to discriminatory interpretation that in my opinion renders it far more offensive than oriental which to my mind refers historically and simply to the Japanese and Chinese. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596/22 "2003-01-04T18:45:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sublight \* > \*\*Personally, I don’t use it for the same reason I don’t use ‘motorcar’ or ‘picture show’. It just sounds far more old-fashioned than offensive. \*\* I always thought it sounded sort of elegant and mysterious. Sort of like the Orient Express… ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596/23 "2003-01-04T18:46:27Z")
Well, I consider myself a Westerner and, yet, I don’t consider Islam to be chauvinistic and oppressive towards women. There are, of course, individual Muslims who are chauvinistic and oppressive towards women and the same can be said of there being individual Christians who hold the same attitudes towards the fair sex. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596/24 "2003-01-04T18:50:52Z")
Bah, I don’t think there are any “imperialistic overtones”. It’s simple. It’s a word people used to use. People used to be racist. If you use it some people think you sound like an old racist. People want to separate themselves from past events by refusing to even use the same language as the perpetrators. If the meaning of the sentence is not intended as offensive then roll your eyes if need be but don’t get all self-righteous. If someone posts “The negro population is more susceptible to sickle cell anemia”- will you assume racism? I’m curious, how does a black person refer to his colour/race when speaking Spanish? On preview: **That is the opposite of “oriental” isn’t it?** I believe it’s Occidental. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596/25 "2003-01-04T19:03:31Z")
[quote] So what defines a “westerner” or a “western country”? Is it affluence, wealth, religion/philosopy, political system of home country? [.quote] Generally, a Western country is defined as inheriting Western European language and culture, which would make both Australia and New Zealand, both English-speaking founded by Great Britain, Western nations. Of course, on closer examination, it becomes harder to delineate rigidly between Western and Eastern culture. Fopr example, Chrstianity and Judaism, both religions far more prevalent in Western nations than in Eastern, originated in the Near East. Our 60-second minute and 24-hour clock came from Mesopotamia. Conversely, Asian democracies owe their form of government to ancient Greece, and their technological prowess is likewise ultimately borrowed from the European originators of engineering and the scientific method. Tempura, the fluffy Japanese, deep-fried snack was borrowed from the Dutch, as castella pastries were borrowed from the Portuguese. Kimchi, the spicy mainstay of a Korean meal, uses red peppers that origfinated in Mexico and did not show up in Korean cookery until the 1600s. When you look at it with an unbiased eye, you’ll see that really there is neither East nor West, but a global culture in which every nation borrows and contributes. ---
**Author:** ![Juniper200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@Juniper200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Juniper200)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596/26 "2003-01-04T19:13:18Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by OpalCat_ > **I always thought it sounded sort of elegant and mysterious. Sort of like the Orient Express…** I think that’s some of the cultural baggage people are trying to abandon. Asians and people of Asian descent want to be taken on their own terms as individuals, and if the word used to describe their race is loaded with connotations of “mystery” and “elegance,” that’s one strike against them. I don’t think that you, Opal, or anyone else here treats Asians differently because of the term “Oriental,” but if the term inspires associations to unwanted cultural expectations (even if they are kinda cool ones like “mystery and elegance,”) then we should probably respect the wishes of others and not use “Oriental” to describe people. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596/27 "2003-01-04T19:25:59Z")
Well the word “Asian” has connotations to me too… but not really positive ones. Actually it tends to make me think of war. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596/28 "2003-01-04T19:27:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Juniper200 \* > \*\*we should probably respect the wishes of others . \*\* Okay, I’m an “other.” I’m 5’11, but because I think really tall people get special advantages, I want you to refer to me in the future as a “giant.” Also, call me “Lefty” when we talk, okay? Because I think people treat lefties better. Please don’t point out how I use my right hand exclusively, either. That would be rude. Got it? “Lefty.” “Giant.” Please remember to respect my wishes. I’ll be supplying you regularly with others. ---
**Author:** ![cart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3ec8ea/32.png) [@cart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cart)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596/29 "2003-01-04T19:28:34Z")
Is the perceived offensiveness of “Oriental” an American thing? The SDMB is the only place where I’ve seen anyone express this view. In the UK, it’s the standard term, and certainly not offensive, even if it is technically incorrect. Personally I use “Oriental” interchangeably with “East Asian” when referring to either people or things from that particular region. As **ruadh** says, “Asian” here usually refers to India/Pakistan. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596/30 "2003-01-04T20:24:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > Generally, a Western country is defined as inheriting Western European language and culture, which would make both Australia and New Zealand, both English-speaking founded by Great Britain, Western nations. But that doesn’t explain Japan often described as [“western”](http://meadev.nic.in/news/clippings/19991228/ie.htm) > [@](#): > > While some Western nations, including Japan and the US, whose … It also doesn’t explain [Israel](http://www.jpost.com/com/Archive/20.Jul.1998/Opinion/Article-0.html) , official language bein Hebrew. > [@](#): > > Developing countries unsuccessfully fought Western nations, including Israel… However not one Portuguese or Spanish ( **Western** European) speaking country in the **western** hemisphere has ever been described as a “western nation” But I think you are generally supporting my point that this is a pretty useless term. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596/31 "2003-01-04T21:36:56Z")
the same term may by categorized as acceptable or offensive in different regions. Here in the Pacific NW, “Asian” is the acceptable term. We had someone use “Oriental” during a job interview. S/he was from the Midwest; we called a contact in that state who told us that “Oriental” was not considered derogatory in that region (at least, by majority culture standards, which is a whole different issue). Had we hired this person, we would have had a talk about nomenclature. ---
**Author:** ![auntnut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f6c823/32.png) [@auntnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auntnut)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596/32 "2003-01-04T22:10:26Z")
Yes, but I still think Cisco is the biggest #2 pencil I have ever met online. (Sleep tight Cisco!😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596/33 "2003-01-04T23:32:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Enderw24 \* > \*\*From what I understand, the term Oriental refers to objects and not to people. Thus, Oriental rugs is ok to say, but an Oriental person isn’t because you “objectify” him or her, if objectify is even the right word here. > The point is that, to some, the using Oriental means you think lowly of him or her. \*\* From [http://www.yourdictionary.com](http://www.yourdictionary.com) o¡¤ri¡¤en¡¤tal (click to hear the word) (0‹0r-ntl, r-) adj. often Oriental Of or relating to the countries of the Orient or their peoples or cultures; eastern. Oriental Of or designating the biogeographic region that includes Asia south of the Himalaya Mountains and the islands of the Malay Archipelago. Lustrous and valuable: oriental pearls. Of or relating to a genuine or superior gem: an oriental ruby. Relating to or designating corundum that resembles another stone in color. n. often Oriental Often Offensive An Asian. * * * ori¡¤ental¡¤ly adv. Usage Note: Asian is now strongly preferred in place of Oriental for persons native to Asia or descended from an Asian people. The usual objection to Orientalmeaning "eastern"is that it identifies Asian countries and peoples in terms of their location relative to Europe. However, this objection is not generally made of other Eurocentric terms such as Near and Middle Eastern. The real problem with Oriental is more likely its connotations stemming from an earlier era when Europeans viewed the regions east of the Mediterranean as exotic lands full of romance and intrigue, the home of despotic empires and inscrutable customs. At the least these associations can give Oriental a dated feel, and as a noun in contemporary contexts (as in the first Oriental to be elected from the district) it is now widely taken to be offensive. However, Oriental should not be thought of as an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. As with Asiatic, its use other than as an ethnonym, in phrases such as Oriental cuisine or Oriental medicine, is not usually considered objectionable. Personally, whenever I hear someone say “oriental is a rug” it says to me they can’t explain why “oriental” is a bad term. When I first ran into this a year and a half ago, I spent a lot of time emailing Asian American study programs and others in the US asking why? This board as well. The only rationale that really makes sense to _me_ is that “oriental” is a colonial term and at best a neutral descriptor and at worst a derogatory term. Therefore, when dealing with _Asian-Americans_ Miss Manners would dictate using the term “Asian” or the specific ethnicity of the person/group in question. [Be careful about using the ancestral country for example because most Tibetan’s would object to being called Chinese.] I would really like it if anyone on these boards can cite and explain the process of the word oriental turning from common usage to verboten. Certainly, through 1985 at the University of California, “oriental” was not something that the Asian-American student body objected to. However, in many parts of the world (especially many countries in the former British commonwealth), “Asian” refers to people from the Indian sub-continent, and “Oriental” to people from east Asia. Also, my understanding in Hawaii is that most the people there from Pacific Islander/Asian descent, don’t care which term is used. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596/34 "2003-01-04T23:37:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cart \* > \*\*Is the perceived offensiveness of “Oriental” an American thing? The SDMB is the only place where I’ve seen anyone express this view. In the UK, it’s the standard term, and certainly not offensive, even if it is technically incorrect. > > Personally I use “Oriental” interchangeably with “East Asian” when referring to either people or things from that particular region. As **ruadh** says, “Asian” here usually refers to India/Pakistan. \*\* Really? I agree that people from India and Pakistan are referred to as Asian, but I have never come across people, say Chinese, as Oriental. Besides who have you seen use this term? Older people, the younger generation tends to class them as Asian. ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596/35 "2003-01-05T00:36:26Z")
What I found aggravating about the original thread is that nobody told **Paul in Saudi** (if I’m getting the name right) that they found the term offensive. There was a fairly short, “Oriental is a rug”, and that’s about all; when he pointed out his reasoning for his word usage, he got shouted at. And _after_ people started complaining about his word usage, someone told him that it was sometimes considered offensive. What basis would someone who had no idea that the term was considered offensive by anyone have to be anything other than offended and shocked by that sort of response? “Oriental is a rug” doesn’t actually convey “The word ‘Oriental’ is taken as a racial/ethnic slur by some people, including myself. I consider it appropriate for referring to objects, such as a rug, but not for people.” Personally, I think “Oriental is a rug” supports and encourages ignorance, rather than fights it, because it doesn’t actually express a coherent and clearly visible objection. Someone said that he’d been informed that it was “somewhat offensive” – uh, no. He was told it was a rug. If I hadn’t seen this argument before, my response to “Oriental is a rug” would be something along the lines of, “And Swiss is a cheese. What does that have to do with anything?” ---
**Author:** ![HomeSlice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/9d8465/32.png) [@HomeSlice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HomeSlice)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596/36 "2003-01-05T00:52:13Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Cisco \* > \*\* > I honestly can’t figure out why people get so worked up about words. I’ve been called ‘cracker’, ‘honkey’, ‘peckerwood’ by black people and only their intentions make me mad, not the actual words._\* No offense, but you don’t know what its like to be a minority. ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596/37 "2003-01-05T01:16:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HomeSlice \* > \*\*No offense, but you don’t know what its like to be a minority. \*\* Well I do and I have a similiar reaction to **Cisco’s**. ---
**Author:** ![mblackwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@mblackwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mblackwell)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596/38 "2003-01-05T01:47:04Z")
I live in a town called Orient, does that make me Oriental? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596/39 "2003-01-05T02:06:24Z")
Although it would seem that I’d be backpedalling from my original position in the “Cunt” thread I have to say that I’ve always used Oriental without any idea that it carried racial overtones. The problem is that seemingly innocent words are now considered inappropriate. Oriental/Westener/Asian/black are not the same as gook/nigger/spic/et cetera. The first group of words are neutral and only carry as much baggage as the listener or the speaker want to put in it whereas the second group are slurs and don’t carry any other meaning but insulting ones. Comparing them is stupid. Somebody have to write a memo of Currently Approved Words (a la 1984) and email us regularly. I, not living in the US and keeping up with the new tendencies, will always be using “outdated” words. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![syncrolecyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596/40 "2003-01-05T02:17:51Z")
I think the reason words like Oriental, Negro, and Colored o on are offensive are not because the words are slurs in themselves- but because the remind people of a time before the1960’s when there was very real legal discrimination out there. Those words were very directly associated with terms of legal racism: “Oriental Exclusion Acts”, “Negro Leagues”, “Colored Restrooms”, etc. As soon as those laws were eradicated, people sought words that didn’t carry such baggage. A lot of times saying “Oriental”, or even more so “Negro” makes people think you have outmoded values and might indicate you hold views that are stuck in the past. It’s probably not entirely fair, but its easy to see how people make that connection. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-term-oriental-and-racism-in-general/146596.md?page=3)