# The terrorist haven of Iraq: A self-fulfilling prophecy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677 "2014-06-13T02:56:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/21 "2014-06-14T19:11:49Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I was _ **NOT** _ arguing unequivocal support for the 1953 coup. I was suggesting that _ **IT MADE SENSE** _ from the standpoint of _ **U.S. self-interest** _ or in terms of global security. > > I wanted to contrast that with the 2003 Iraq invasion which was _pure idiocy even by (especially by) the standards of those who might have supported the 1953 coup_. No, both were stupid as well as evil. Both were motivated by greed, bigotry and power lust, not “global security” - it’s _America_ that’s a threat to global security, not them. And both have been disasters. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/22 "2014-06-15T09:54:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, both were stupid as well as evil. Both were motivated by greed, bigotry and power lust, not “global security” - it’s _America_ that’s a threat to global security, not them. And both have been disasters. Agreed. To try and say overthrowing the Iranian govt was a good thing, is absurd, even within the self-serving terms its presented in. Because provoking an islamic revolution has turned out just so peachy for everyone hasn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![iLemming](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90db22/32.png) [@iLemming](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iLemming)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/23 "2014-06-15T12:30:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What you are calling for would require the near-total genocide or expulsion of the local population, and replacing them with Americans. “Prime-time-unfriendly” is a massive understatement. Erhm… no. Because if that were the case, what are the West trying to democratise over there – fundamentalist moslems? If so… well, that’s kind of pointless, isn’t it? :rolleyes: Don’t act like a ‘soft’ form of genocide isn’t taking place through the very act of invading or even intervening in these places, anyway; because it is. How many Iraqis putatively died as a result of the 2003 invasion? 100,000? More? If you excise a cancerous tumour, you cut it all out. You don’t leave bits behind to metastasise. Religious extremists are an anathema to a civil, democratic, egalitarian society and to say you can negotiate with them or find common ground is utterly asinine and demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the absolutism being dealt with. I mean, if they’ve got the gall to [vaunt about their barbarous exploits on Twitter](http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/2014/06/15/13/38/twitter-forced-to-act-after-iraq-executions-live-tweeted), how can any logic or rationale be employed when dealing with such so-called ‘people’? Do you really believe Jihadists wouldn’t invade (read: **raze to the ground** ) the U.S., or any other “infidel” nation, had they the wherewithal to do so? HA! You really want to wait that long? Or do you think _eventually_ we’ll all hold hands and sing Kumbaya in a kind of ‘new utopia’, filled with peace, love and mung beans, after these Islamic nations are brought up to a comparative First World standard, both economically and militarily? Affording such an enemy respect is tantamount to aiding and abetting them. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/24 "2014-06-15T17:13:58Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Even the 1953 CIA-sponsored coup d’état in Iran led to a period of prosperity, not equaled after their 1979 revolution until recently. _Post hoc ergo propter hoc_ – which is to say, we can only guess at what Iran would have looked like had the coup failed or not be carried out. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/25 "2014-06-15T19:41:56Z")
> [@iLemming](#): > > Erhm… no. Because if that were the case, what are the West trying to democratise over there – fundamentalist moslems? \*No one; \*we are the enemies of democracy. We’re prone to overthrowing democracies if they are weak enough for us to do so; we have no interest in creating more. We just make speeches about it in order to justify putting in puppet dictators. > [@iLemming](#): > > Don’t act like a ‘soft’ form of genocide isn’t taking place through the very act of invading or even intervening in these places, anyway; because it is. How many Iraqis putatively died as a result of the 2003 invasion? 100,000? More? If you excise a cancerous tumour, you cut it all out. You don’t leave bits behind to metastasise. > > Religious extremists are an anathema to a civil, democratic, egalitarian society and to say you can negotiate with them or find common ground is utterly asinine and demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the absolutism being dealt with. I mean, if they’ve got the gall to [vaunt about their barbarous exploits on Twitter](http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/2014/06/15/13/38/twitter-forced-to-act-after-iraq-executions-live-tweeted), how can any logic or rationale be employed when dealing with such so-called ‘people’? > > Do you really believe Jihadists wouldn’t invade (read: **raze to the ground** ) the U.S., or any other “infidel” nation, had they the wherewithal to do so? HA! You really want to wait that long? Or do you think _eventually_ we’ll all hold hands and sing Kumbaya in a kind of ‘new utopia’, filled with peace, love and mung beans, after these Islamic nations are brought up to a comparative First World standard, both economically and militarily? > > Affording such an enemy respect is tantamount to aiding and abetting them. Besides the fact that you are advocating genocide, Iraq was secular before we attacked, just as Iran was before we installed the Shah. We are responsible for much of the rise in fundamentalist Islam in the region. We keep smashing everything else that might counter it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/26 "2014-06-15T19:54:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > \*No one; \*we are the enemies of democracy. We’re prone to overthrowing democracies if they are weak enough for us to do so; we have no interest in creating more. We just make speeches about it in order to justify putting in puppet dictators. We have at times done that, but not in this case. > [@](#): > > Besides the fact that you are advocating genocide, Iraq was secular before we attacked, just as Iran was before we installed the Shah. Iraq was a totalitarian state before we invaded. Clearly the sectarian strains were already there, suppressed. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/27 "2014-06-15T20:16:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Iraq was a totalitarian state before we invaded. Clearly the sectarian strains were already there, suppressed. There were sme atrocities perpetrated on the part of the Ba’athist leadership. Those generally affected a very small minority, though, most of the people just got on with their lives. There _was_ the question of the Kurds, but one has to find out what Saddam Hussein’s motivation was for doing what he did there. And, of course, the US had a hand in that as well (whence the gas ITFP, and, well, Kurds are Shi’ites, their whole unrest may well have hinged on the example of Iran next door). In the end, it all points back to 1953. The US got involved in something that was not really even their concern. Without that meddling, the Iranian protests of the '70s might never have developed, setting the tone for nutty Islamic militancy coming forward. Nevermind the folly that was Afghanistan: add these things together and you can see the American government’s direct responsibility for even just the creation of al Qaeda. Nothing we do in that part of the world turn out well. _Nothing_. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/28 "2014-06-15T20:40:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Iraq was a totalitarian state before we invaded. Clearly the sectarian strains were already there, suppressed. Guess what? That’s true _everywhere._ There’s fanatics everywhere in the world. We just destroyed everything that could keep them under control. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/29 "2014-06-15T21:15:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Guess what? That’s true _everywhere._ There’s fanatics everywhere in the world. We just destroyed everything that could keep them under control. That has nothing to do with whether or not there were sectarian divisions in Iraq prior. Your claim that Iraq was “secular” is nonsensical since it was a brutal, totalitarian state. If you kept your head down and didn’t rock the boat, you were probably OK. That doesn’t mean the Kurds and the Shi’a like the Sunnis. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/30 "2014-06-15T21:15:08Z")
Has the US forgiven the French for their very sensible opposition to the Iraq War yet? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/31 "2014-06-15T21:34:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > … Your claim that Iraq was “secular” is nonsensical since it was a brutal, totalitarian state… So, now we have a living example of what we should do: Syria. It is a brutal totalitarian secular state, meaning society is not structured around a religion. What would happen, if we helped the rebellion, do you think that would make them love us? Like in Afghanistan? What ever we do or fail to do, there is no good outcome. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/32 "2014-06-15T21:38:16Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > So, now we have a living example of what we should do: Syria. It is a brutal totalitarian secular state, meaning society is not structured around a religion. What would happen, if we helped the rebellion, do you think that would make them love us? Like in Afghanistan? What ever we do or fail to do, there is no good outcome. The world isn’t ours to fix. ---
**Author:** ![slowlearner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@slowlearner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slowlearner)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/33 "2014-06-15T23:51:04Z")
The score so far is evil terrorists about 8000 civilian and military American kills, U.S.A over 500,000 Muslim kills. They can’t even kill their own people as fast we can. The West created countries named Syria, Jordan, and Iraq last century for our own convenience. The countries made no sense, now it’s going to take a lot of killing to get it all straightened out. The Kurds, Sunnis, and Shias will have their own countries soon, don’t get so worked up about the Terrorists, they really are freedom fighters, just have some peculiar ideas about freedom. Be interesting over the years to see if they can ever integrate into the larger 21st century world of nations, not sure if they’ll ever want to… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/34 "2014-06-16T00:16:46Z")
> [@slowlearner](#): > > The score so far is evil terrorists about 8000 civilian and military American kills, U.S.A over 500,000 Muslim kills. Factually incorrect, but don’t let that stop you! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/35 "2014-06-16T18:37:35Z")
> [@iLemming](#): > > Surely this half-assed, cobbled together approach to playing ‘world police’ has to end if we’re ever to make any actual, _forward_ progress and gain respect as First World nations that use their relative ascension to accomplish good. As distinct from just running amok like bulls in a china shop – a reputation which we’ve all but been branded with now. China want’s to play in the big leagues then I suggest it’s their turn at bat. Let them deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/36 "2014-06-16T19:10:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That has nothing to do with whether or not there were sectarian divisions in Iraq prior. Your claim that Iraq was “secular” is nonsensical since it was a brutal, totalitarian state. And? That made it no less secular. Secular isn’t a synonym for liberal democracy, nor does it mean there are no sectarian divisions. The destruction of Iraqi secularism was a major victory for Al Qaeda; they got us to destroy it for them. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you kept your head down and didn’t rock the boat, you were probably OK. Which is better than what they have now. ---
**Author:** ![iLemming](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90db22/32.png) [@iLemming](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iLemming)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/37 "2014-06-16T21:42:39Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > There were sme atrocities perpetrated on the part of the Ba’athist leadership. Those generally affected a very small minority, though, most of the people just got on with their lives. Indeed. After all, who remembers the Armenians? > [@slowlearner](#): > > The score so far is evil terrorists about 8000 civilian and military American kills, U.S.A over 500,000 Muslim kills. Well, given the U.S. population is around 310 million (of which ~1% are moslems) and there are purportedly over 1.6 billion Islamic adherents around the globe… Homer J. likes them odds! > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Factually incorrect, but don’t let that stop you! Some would argue the oft-quoted Jewish holocaust figure of “6 million” [is in incorrect,](http://www.whatreallyhappened.info/) [too.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRrP7AevKi4) You know, the victors’ writing history… and all that. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/38 "2014-06-16T21:59:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The world isn’t ours to fix. No. OTOH, when you let your 3-year old brat lose in a china store it’s considered polite to help the store-owner sweep up the mess. What’s our excuse? “We didn’t know he was just a cantankerous brat. He said he was on a mission from God.” ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/39 "2014-06-16T23:34:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Factually incorrect, but don’t let that stop you! What are the real numbers? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/40 "2014-06-20T11:26:49Z")
A few hundred Green Berets assisting Iraqi Military against 3000 terrorists Who does not like Obama’s move? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677.md?page=3)