# The terrorist haven of Iraq: A self-fulfilling prophecy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677 "2014-06-13T02:56:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/41 "2014-06-20T11:39:30Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > No. OTOH, when you let your 3-year old brat lose in a china store it’s considered polite to help the store-owner sweep up the mess. The problem is, to continue the analogy this is _after_ you rode a bull through the china shop while shouting “yee-hah!” and waving a cowboy hat. It’s rather doubtful that your help will result in anything other than breaking what little china there is left. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/42 "2014-06-20T15:50:06Z")
> [@iLemming](#): > > Indeed. After all, who remembers the Armenians Indeed. And who remembers [the Christians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Iraq). > [@](#): > > The Christians of Iraq are considered to be one of the oldest surviving continuous Christian communities in the world. The vast majority are Eastern Aramaic-speaking ethnic Assyrians, Armenians, Arabs, Kurds and Turcoman extant also. > > In Iraq, Christians numbered about 1,500,000 in 2003, representing just over 5% of the population of the country. They numbered over 1.4 million in 1987 or 8% of the population.[1] After the Iraq War, it was estimated that the number of Christians in Iraq had dropped to less than 450,000 by 2013 ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/43 "2014-06-20T15:51:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The problem is, to continue the analogy this is _after_ you rode a bull through the china shop while shouting “yee-hah!” and waving a cowboy hat. It’s rather doubtful that your help will result in anything other than breaking what little china there is left. Particularly if one’s definition of ‘help’ is riding the same bull back into the same china shop. ---
**Author:** ![EmmoPS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@EmmoPS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmmoPS)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/44 "2014-06-22T15:55:47Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > One needn’t agree with self-interested U.S. interventions to acknowledge that, in many cases, they provided stability and enhanced global security. The 1958 U.S. Marine Invasion of Lebanon to bolster the pro-Western Lebanese government of President Chamoun against internal opposition, ultimately lead to a more polarized state. Then of course there was the United States intervention in the Lebanese civil war, along with the Israeli occupation of parts of Lebanon that helped give birth to Hezbollah. In the early 1990s US intervention in Somalia and repeated backing of invasions by Somalia’s neighboring states, lead to the overthrow of a relatively moderate Islamist government. Like Afghanistan, Somali resistance to foreign invaders became radicalized, allowing groups like al-Shabab to gain some control, all of which would have been unlikely without US intervention. 1994 US Invasion of Haiti to restore democracy and ousted President Jean-Bertand Aristide to power. The end result was the erosion of political, economic and social conditions of the country in the following years. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/45 "2014-06-22T18:43:54Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > No. OTOH, when you let your 3-year old brat lose in a china store it’s considered polite to help the store-owner sweep up the mess. > > What’s our excuse? “We didn’t know he was just a cantankerous brat. He said he was on a mission from God.” I don’t see that’s an apt analogy, especially since we’re not talking about politeness. But just out of curiosity, are you suggesting we jump back in? If so, to what extent? > [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > What are the real numbers? I don’t know. I think you posted the total number killed, most of whom were killed by other Iraqis, not the US. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/46 "2014-06-23T02:49:07Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Particularly if one’s definition of ‘help’ is riding the same bull back into the same china shop. No, I think it was slightly different bull. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/47 "2014-06-23T04:14:18Z")
> [@iLemming](#): > > Indeed. After all, who remembers the Armenians? Kurds. Armenians are a different genocide, in a different country, in a different era :). Saddam wasn’t even born then. In fact, [he was apparently sweet on Armenians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Iraq) (I didn’t know that) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/48 "2014-06-23T10:29:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But just out of curiosity, are you suggesting we jump back in? If so, to what extent? How about sending in a few hundred special ops teams from Delta Force and Green Beret and Army Rangers and Navy Seals to assist our long time allies inside Iraq, the Kurds/Peshmerga. There should be no objection to our being the Air Force for the Peshmerga if it comes ti that, and specifically for those Peshmerga already trained in counter-terrorism by Delta Force itself. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/49 "2014-06-23T11:15:22Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Kurds. Armenians are a different genocide, in a different country, in a different era :). Saddam wasn’t even born then. In fact, [he was apparently sweet on Armenians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Iraq) (I didn’t know that) Armenian Christians have taken a considerable beating in the new liberated Iraq. But yes, Hitler was referring to the Turkish genocide. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/50 "2014-06-23T11:17:02Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > How about sending in a few hundred special ops teams from Delta Force and Green Beret and Army Rangers and Navy Seals to assist our long time allies inside Iraq, the Kurds/Peshmerga. There should be no objection to our being the Air Force for the Peshmerga if it comes ti that, and specifically for those Peshmerga already trained in counter-terrorism by Delta Force itself. I don’t think the Kurds have any interest in doing anything but defending themselves and opportunistically establishing facts on the ground in previously disputed territory. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/51 "2014-06-24T06:00:08Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Armenian Christians have taken a considerable beating in the new liberated Iraq. But yes, Hitler was referring to the Turkish genocide. Ha, right. Didn’t realize that was a Hitler quote. Now I know (which, I am reliably informed, is half the battle). ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/52 "2014-06-24T13:34:16Z")
Has anyone already [linked to Elliott Abrams’ damning charges against Obama](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/06/the-man-who-broke-the-middle-east-108140.html)? Of course a neo-con hypocrite like Abrams will exaggerate, but is there validity in his accusations? Did Obama’s own envoys (Hof and Ford) resign to protest Obama’s inaction? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677/53 "2014-06-27T04:26:11Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Has anyone already [linked to Elliott Abrams’ damning charges against Obama](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/06/the-man-who-broke-the-middle-east-108140.html)? From the Link: > [@](#): > > The most populous Arab country is Egypt, where Obama stuck too long with Hosni Mubarak as the Arab Spring arrived, and then with the Army, and then the Muslim Brotherhood President Mohammed Morsi, and now is embracing the Army again > > Read more: [http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/06/the-man-who-broke-the-middle-east-108140.html#ixzz35oG3oK8t](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/06/the-man-who-broke-the-middle-east-108140.html#ixzz35oG3oK8t) Who can tell if peopie like Abrams drive right wing hate talk radio it if hate talk radio drives him. 20 20 hindsight from neocon ideologues is useless thought when it comes to sticking to leaders most of the time. Egypt is a place where Egyptians are deciding where the want to be as a people. Its not the US President’s job to lead whatever movement that erupts. Egypt has stabilized and there is some repression but there is no economic collapse or a religion vs secular civil war. Abrams can shut up about Egypt as a start to critiquing his commentary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terrorist-haven-of-iraq-a-self-fulfilling-prophecy/690677.md?page=2)