# The Terry Pratchett Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 24, 2003, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156 "2003-06-24T22:21:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156/81 "2003-06-27T06:07:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Quantum Butterfly \* > \*\*Amen! I empathised with Agnes to an almost painful degree when I first read Maskerade. Especially that one line by the theater manager, watching Agnes walk away… “Do you think she realizes how fat she is?” :rolleyes: I heard the occasional comment to that effect about myself pre-WW. You never see a fat girl portrayed as a strong, capable character in fantasy… except, of course, when reading Pratchett! He breaks stereotypes without making that the obvious focus of the story. \*\* I’ll second the amen. I especially love how everyone says Agnes has nice hair and a good personality, as if they can’t admit to themselves what they’re really thinking (which is indubitably true), and how everyone expects her to cope while they fawn over the constantly fainting Christine. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156/82 "2003-06-27T13:39:11Z")
Hear hear!! And let us not forget Granny Weatherwax who seems to work at staying “ugly” … but perhaps was not always quite so successful at it – or perhaps it simply didn’t matter – in regards to her old relationship with Mustrum Ridcully … or am I reading too much into that? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156/83 "2003-06-27T14:06:19Z")
Oh, I think Granny might’ve considered a deeper relationship with Mustrum when she was a younger woman. But she was rather self-centered then, which gave her a good beginning to become a witch. And I see a lot of myself in Agnes – good hair, “Such a personality,” assumed to be able to cope under pressure, and…well, “Does she know she’s that fat?” Especially me in high school. In a lot of fantasy prose, the strength and bravery of men is held up along with the beauty and kindness of women. Take Susan, one of the favorite characters in the Discworld. We assume she’s good-looking, just because we aren’t told otherwise, but I can’t recall Terry ever mentioning her _attractiveness_, per se, though he does mention the fair skin, the (heh) unusual hair, the marks on her cheek… And she’s not exactly kind. Generally benevolent, yes, but I don’t think you could call her “nice”. Oh – while I’m not a big fan of the early stuff in the Discworld, I really love the description of Herenna – > [@](#): > > …any woman setting out to make a living by the sword isn’t going to go around looking like something off the cover of the more advanced kind of lingerie catalogue for the specialised buyer. > Oh well, all right. The point that must be made is that although Herrenna the Henna-Haired Harridan would look quite stunning after a good bath, a heavy manicure, and the pick of the leather racks in Woo Hun Ling’s Oriental Exotic and Martial Aids on Heroes Street, she was currently quite sensibly dressed in light chain mail, soft boots, and a short sword. > All right, maybe the boots were leather. But not black. And it gets better. Hee. Hmm, perhaps I’d better read those two books again…not his best, but certainly exceptional. I did a report on the Guards series once in college, in my class on the Heroic Figure. I compared Vimes and Carrot throughout all the books (NW hadn’t come out yet) and came to conclusions on who the (H)ero was, and why… ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156/84 "2003-06-27T14:19:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ponder Stibbons \* > \*\*Hear hear!! And let us not forget Granny Weatherwax who seems to work at staying “ugly” … but perhaps was not always quite so successful at it – or perhaps it simply didn’t matter – in regards to her old relationship with Mustrum Ridcully … or am I reading too much into that? \*\* We know it never became physical (from the episode with the unicorn) but it was certainly amorous. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156/85 "2003-06-27T15:17:05Z")
Terry Pratchett books! Another fan checking in. After reading this thread, it looks like I’ll have to catch up. Again. 🙂 I second whoever said that the Discworld series is getting better. I tend to compare it to _The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy_ and the _Xanth_ series, and note that while _THGttG_ petered out\*, and the _Xanth_ series seemed to plateau, the Discworld series keeps adding depth. I wonder whether this is partly because fantasy has a far greater realm of possibilities for parody than science fiction? Of course Pratchett has done an amazing job of referencing all kinds of realworld items and philosophies. The ending of _Hogfather_ actually had me in tears, it was just so intense and poignant and beautiful. What’s with the crappy cover art on US editions? Most of my books (bought in Canada) have the canonical UK art, those great paintings (don’t know who does them), but I have a US copy of _Soul Music_ that is totally different cover art without a painting at all. BTW, anyone know whether frameable prints of some of the paintings from _The Last Barbarian_ are available? I would dearly like to have one on my wall… [sub]\*Yes, I know, Douglas Adams died. But IMHO it petered out _before_ that.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156/86 "2003-06-27T15:42:02Z")
A few years ago (I forget which year) Pterry was a guest at Necronomicon, an annual sf convention in Tampa. (I got autographs in _Eric_ and _Lords and Ladies_!) He told us that he turned the Librarian into an orangutan in one of his early books (I forget – was it _Colour of Magic_? _Sourcery_?) just because it seemed an amusing thing to turn a librarian into, and then somehow he came to the attention of conservationists working to protect the endangered orangutan in Indonesia and Malaysia. He even got roped into a speaking tour down in those countries – he told us a wonderful story about how his group was walking through the jungle when a real live orangutan emerged and sauntered past, just kind of glancing sideways at the humans, and their native guide was trying hard to keep up his stone-faced Malaysian macho act in the presence of this creature that was essentially a cubic yard of solid muscle. I’m a graduate student in library sciences, and I have a message-button (not original with me) that says, “Librarians rule ook!” ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156/87 "2003-06-27T15:43:42Z")
Another strong, less than perfect (physically, anyway) female character is Sybil Ramkin Vimes. She’s got such inner strength, and TP has written her beautifully; Sam’s equal in just about every way. In The Fifth Elephant, we get to see just how bright she is while she haggles with the dwarf king, her husband watching in stunned amazement. She can always find the most diplomatic thing to say, even to Cheery about her new ball gown (“oh, no, red is a GOOD color…”) So much goes on in their relationship that is only hinted at, just as in any good marriage, and it’s obvious that Vimes respects his wife greatly. It is Sybil, I think, that rounds out Vimes’ character and humanizes him, rather than being adjunct to him. ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156/88 "2003-06-27T15:49:14Z")
**BrainGlutton** ’s post reminded me of one of my favorite Pratchett expressions: going librarian poo. ---
**Author:** ![Shortie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@Shortie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shortie)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156/89 "2003-06-27T17:48:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sunspace \* > \*\* > What’s with the crappy cover art on US editions? Most of my books (bought in Canada) have the canonical UK art, those great paintings (don’t know who does them), but I have a US copy of _Soul Music_ that is totally different cover art without a painting at all. > > BTW, anyone know whether frameable prints of some of the paintings from _The Last Barbarian_ are available? I would dearly like to have one on my wall… \*\* You could try [here](http://www.paulkidby.com/navigate.htm) for stuff by Paul Kidby (who’s done the newer Pratchett stuff). There’s some stuff by Josh Kirby (who did the earlier stuff and has sadly died since) around, but no central site that I know off. And yeah, the art in the Last Hero was awesome. ---
**Author:** ![cher3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@cher3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cher3)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156/90 "2003-06-27T18:28:13Z")
A number of people have mentioned _Good Omens_ as being one of their favorite Pratchett-related books, and I like it very much, too. I just finished reading Neil Gaiman’s _American Gods_, though, and I had a very mixed reaction. I almost stopped reading it after a few chapters, but finally decided to go on to the end. I had heard that Gaiman’s tastes ran much darker than Pratchett’s and that it had been a bone of contention sometimes during their collaboration, but…wow. I think, overall it was worth it, but I’m not in any great hurry to read any of his other stuff. My overall reaction was similar to the one I had to _Twin Peaks_–it kept me interested, and there were occasionally flashes of insight and humor that were all the more compelling for their dark surroundings;but it was tough going. Plus: I think Douglas Adams did it better in _Long Dark Teatime of the Soul_. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156/91 "2003-06-27T18:28:39Z")
Possibly one of my favorite bits in the Last Hero is the picture with Vetinari on the left side of the left page and Rincewind on the right side of the right page. The expressions, the posture, everything…so perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156/92 "2003-06-27T18:31:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > > I think Douglas Adams did it better in _Long Dark Teatime of the Soul_. \*\* I confess that I haven’t read AG yet, but the other’s one of my all-time faves and, from the description of AG, very similar. I can’t compare till I read AG, though…but I do love the idea. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156/93 "2003-06-27T19:54:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BrainGlutton \* > He told us that he turned the Librarian into an orangutan in one of his early books (I forget – was it _Colour of Magic_? _Sourcery_?) just because it seemed an amusing thing to turn a librarian into For the record, the Librarian’s “improvement” occurred at the start of **The Light Fantastic,** when he got zapped by the Change Spell the Octavo used to save Rincewind from dropping over the edge of the Disc. And for whoever gives a fig, my collection of Pratchett quotes can be found [here.](http://www.digiserve.com/eescape/closet/Closet.html#Pratchett) > [@](#): > > One such accident had turned the librarian into an ape; since then he had resisted all attempts to turn him back, explaining in sign language that life as an orang-outan was considerably better than life as a human being, because all the big philosophical questions resolved themselves into wondering where the next banana was coming from. > –Terry Pratchett, **Equal Rites** ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156/94 "2003-06-27T20:49:24Z")
As I understand it, **Eric** , which seems to be the least favorite of Pterry’s work, was originally an illustrated novel, much in the same way as **The Last Hero**. I can imagine the latter being a bit flat, without the wonderful artwork, but I’ve never seen Eric - Illustrated. Nor found any place to order it. Any doper who’s seen it? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156/95 "2003-06-27T21:17:14Z")
It was _The Last Hero_? :: blushes :: Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156/96 "2003-06-27T21:20:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cher3 \* > \*\*A number of people have mentioned _Good Omens_ as being one of their favorite Pratchett-related books, and I like it very much, too. I just finished reading Neil Gaiman’s _American Gods_, though, and I had a very mixed reaction. I almost stopped reading it after a few chapters, but finally decided to go on to the end. I had heard that Gaiman’s tastes ran much darker than Pratchett’s and that it had been a bone of contention sometimes during their collaboration, but…wow. > > I think, overall it was worth it, but I’m not in any great hurry to read any of his other stuff. My overall reaction was similar to the one I had to _Twin Peaks_–it kept me interested, and there were occasionally flashes of insight and humor that were all the more compelling for their dark surroundings;but it was tough going. > > Plus: > > I think Douglas Adams did it better in _Long Dark Teatime of the Soul_. \*\* I enjoyed **American Gods** , and I felt it had a lot of horror elements as well as fantasy. Very much like **Sandman**. There may have been some disagreement between the two when they were working on **Good Omens** , but it doesn’t seem to have damaged their friendship. In the acknowledgements at the end of AG, Neil thanks Terry for working out a tricky plot point for him. And of course, there’s Terry’s thanks to Neil for the loan of the last existing copy of the Necromnicon (I think that was at the beginning of **Sourcery** ). Also, re the spoiler, I enjoyed that book too, but I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![cher3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@cher3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cher3)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156/97 "2003-06-27T21:58:48Z")
Yes, I noticed the acknowledgement, too. I didn’t mean to imply the their collaboration had spoiled their friendship in any way, but I had heard that Pratchett vetoed a few ideas. Specifically, he lets Gaiman have a character devoured alive by maggots, but stipulates that she (I think it was a she) has to be restored. I just felt the gore was more than a bit gratuitous in a couple of places, and that he lost the thread a few times. It was very ambitious in many ways, but I’m not sure that it added much to the basic idea that Adams was playing around with. Anyway…back to your regularly scheduled Terry. ---
**Author:** ![A\_wizard\_song\_for\_thee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/46a35a/32.png) [@A\_wizard\_song\_for\_thee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_wizard_song_for_thee)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156/98 "2003-06-28T19:11:11Z")
Yeah, about the spoiler for _Good Omens_ above: In fact, Pterry’s point was just that they couldn’t allow anyone to be hurt because of the fact that Adam was on earth. Neil eventually conceded the point, but still wanted someone to be eaten by maggots. I think you can find more in the APF at the L-Space website I love Terry’s books, too, and, like many people here, am especially intrigued by the dynamic between the trio (is it still a dynamic if there are three?) of Vetenari, Vimes, and Carrot. I kind of look at it like this: Vimes is there to keep Vetenari on his toes. The Patrician knows that if he slips or in any way causes harm to come to the city,at least, y’know, substantial harm, more than your everyday, general, _background_ harm that is a normal day in Ankh-Morpork, Vimes would be there to take care of him. Perhaps take him out of the city, as it were, entirely. As such, Vetenari has groomed Vimes to be his successor, but the Patrician knows that Vimes would have to be tricked or otherwise coerced into accepting the post of Patrician, because the Duke has that whole doesn’t-want-to-lead-even-though-he’s-best-suited-for-it thing. I doubt seriously that Carrot would take up the mantle of king unless it became obvious that Vimes and/or Vetenari became incapable, somehow, of handling the city. In fact, it seems that, in the later Watch books, Pterry has gotten away from this facet (Carrot’s kingship) of the plot entirely. Anyway, I would be hard-pressed to decide on a favourite sub-series, since they’re all so different, but as for favorite characters, I’d have to say Sir Samuel Vimes and Granny Weatherwax. But Gytha Ogg’s close behind (Where, I’m sure, she likes it). ---
**Author:** ![Einmon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Einmon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Einmon)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156/99 "2003-06-28T20:33:07Z")
Of course, I miss this thread like I always do with Pratchett threads, I don’t know why… I started with the Truckers/Diggers/Wings trilogy and then got given _Good Omens_. Now I’ve got everything Pterry AND am reading Neil Gaiman’s blog daily. First Discworld novel was Mort, and it got me thoroughly hooked because I read it and was thinking: oh, my, another one of those books where the hero falls in love with the stick-thin princess and has a chubby “best friend” who ends up with the funny wizard. Boy, was I ever surprised…yay for different female characters, as noted before. I actually read Pterry in cycles. First I was on the “Witches Roll” and read and re-read all Witches novels. Then, I reverted to the “Rincewind Cycle”. Hated the Watch novels. Re-read the Witches novels. Threw in the occasional Mort and Small Gods for good measure. And suddenly, when reading all books from the beginning, got “Hooked on the Watch”. I guess it was Sam Vimes who did it, I still don’t particularly care for Carrot. Read and re-read all the Watch novels. Anybody else have cycles like that? Sometimes I need a dose of Esme Weatherwax, sometimes I feel like a bit of Susan, sometimes I just needs me some Sir Samuel. My Rincewind episodes grow less and less, though… ---
**Author:** ![Natroga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/85f322/32.png) [@Natroga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natroga)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156/100 "2003-06-28T23:11:36Z")
Yeah, I always read the books like this. I’m actually almost thru another Watch-cycle right now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-terry-pratchett-thread/184156.md?page=6)