# The? TheTheTheThe ... Sometimes it's just "the" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 16, 2008, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138 "2008-06-16T19:09:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138/21 "2008-06-16T22:03:57Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell] However, while I can’t find a specific cite for the Beatles… [/QUOTE] [Here’s one](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/tools_and_services/specials/style_guide/article986719.ece): > [@The Times style guide](#): > > **Beatles** , the, no need to cap the unless at the start of a sentence; similarly the Rolling Stones and the Manic Street Preachers etc, but prefer to keep cap “T” with The Who and The The They also have a length entry, unsurprisingly, under ‘T’ for references to the newspaper itself. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2008, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138/22 "2008-06-16T23:46:15Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] But the thing is, the Beatles weren’t called “The Beatles”, they were Beatles - they consisted of four individual Beatles. John was a Beatle. Paul, George and Ringo: also Beatles. Seeing as those were all the Beatles there were, all four of them together were “the Beatles”, and not, say, “a bunch of Beatles” or “some Beatles”. Saying “the Beatles” is like saying “the Republicans” or “the Dopers.” I mean, gramatically. Beatles Beatles Beatles. [/QUOTE] Likewise (and double-strength) for the [Pixies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixies) who have got a footnote in their Wikipedia page which aggressively and pedantically points this fact out. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2008, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138/23 "2008-06-16T23:51:03Z")
[QUOTE=Jurph] Likewise (and double-strength) for the [Pixies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixies) who have got a footnote in their Wikipedia page which aggressively and pedantically points this fact out. [/QUOTE] :dubious: You have an _extremely_ low bar for aggression and pedantry. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Ryle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8dc957/32.png) [@Mark\_Ryle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mark_Ryle)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138/24 "2008-06-17T04:43:05Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] Beatles Beatles Beatles. [/QUOTE] “I don’t believe in Beatles.” John Lennon, from _God (The Dream Is Over)_ Doesn’t mean anything – I just like it. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138/25 "2008-06-17T05:08:04Z")
Are the rules different if one is writing in The Hague? ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138/26 "2008-06-17T11:41:45Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Are the rules different if one is writing in The Hague? [/QUOTE] Dear The Cheat, I have arrived in The Hague with The Donald, and we are going to see The Who. I am sure it will prove to be Tha Bomb. See you next week in The Gambia! Your pal, Teh Haxx0rz ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138/27 "2008-06-17T13:18:14Z")
Any one else catch the irony that this is posted in The BBQ Pit? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138/28 "2008-06-17T13:48:16Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] - King’s novel _The Stand_ was made into a critically acclaimed television movie. - I really like Thunderclap Newman’s song “The Reason.” [/QUOTE] And just to clarify this point, these are titles used as titles. The _the_ would remain uncapitalized and unitalicized/unquoted in these situations: - The producers of the television show successfully translated the _Stand_ characters to the small screen. - At least one music critic has noted that the “Reason” melody has spawned many imitators. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138/29 "2008-06-17T14:57:42Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell] However, while I can’t find a specific cite for the Beatles or the Ohio State University, it seems to me from scanning online news sources that the lowercase _the_ is preferred. [/QUOTE] Here’s one, and I’ll call this more definitive than what any stylebook says. _“Beatles” “Apple” and the Apple logos are trademarks of Apple Corps Ltd._ So the group’s legal name is “Beatles” not “The Beatles.” As for Ohio State, “The” may be a part of that school’s official name, but guess what! [Even the University’s own materials](http://www.osu.edu/news/newsitem2039) don’t always follow it. I say screw’ em – first reference only, if that! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138/30 "2008-06-17T15:06:54Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] First, I don’t agree that the “formal” name (whatever that means in this context) is “The Beatles.” They are the Beatles. The “the” is there because English grammar demands it, not because it’s a necessary part of the name. [/QUOTE] It’s definitely part of the name. Some rock bands use the definite article (and in the case of A Flock of Seagulls, the indefinite article) and some don’t: The Beatles The Rolling Stones The Tragically Hip The Who The Clash If you just peruse their album covers, the definite article is usually used. (The Stones are a bit inconsistent in this regard, though.) Still, the article is accepted as part of their names. Some do not: Nirvana Pearl Jam Led Zeppelin Creedence Clearwater Revival I don’t see anything wrong with typing out “I met The Beatles,” or “I met the Beatles.” Either way seems grammatically correct to me although they imply slightly different meanings; in the first, I seem to be saying “I met the band known as The Beatles” and in the second I am saying “I met the gentlemen who are famous for being members of this band.” But either works. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138/31 "2008-06-17T15:17:29Z")
My rule of thumb is this - if you could concevably drop the definite article, then it shouldn’t be capitalized. For instance: “He’s a Beatle” “She’s a New York Times reporter” However, you would not say: “He’s a Who”, unless you were talking to a Seussian denzian. Therefore, you’d capitalize the definite article in “The Who” [QUOTE=RickJay] If you just peruse their album covers, the definite article is usually used. (The Stones are a bit inconsistent in this regard, though.) Still, the article is accepted as part of their names. [/QUOTE] But that’s just beacause the beginning of sentances or of titles is always capitalized, no matter what. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138/32 "2008-06-17T15:39:29Z")
Here’s what bothers me: When TV announcers say things like “Stay tuned for a new _The Simpsons_ coming up next!” “a new The”? ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138/33 "2008-06-17T16:06:20Z")
[QUOTE=kunilou] Here’s one, and I’ll call this more definitive than what any stylebook says. _“Beatles” “Apple” and the Apple logos are trademarks of Apple Corps Ltd._ So the group’s legal name is “Beatles” not “The Beatles.” [/QUOTE] That just means they trademarked the word _Beatles_. The trademark on _Beatles_ also protects the use of _The Beatles_, just as the trademark on _Apple_ protects the use of _Apple Corps_. There’s no such thing as a band’s “legal name”. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138/34 "2008-06-17T16:22:04Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] It’s definitely part of the name. Some rock bands use the definite article (and in the case of A Flock of Seagulls, the indefinite article) and some don’t: [/QUOTE] As a point of interest, their respective first records billed them as: The Pink Floyd The Cream Kinks ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138/35 "2008-06-17T18:24:50Z")
[QUOTE=LilShieste] Is this supposed to apply to other articles (e.g., “a”), as well? That is, should I not capitalize the “a” in _A Scanner Darkly_? [/QUOTE] If it’s within the italicized or quoted part of the title, it should be capitalized. But not, for example, in this case: - This novel uses a _Scanner Darkly_ style story arc. And how many of you, who claim that “The Who” is the “formal” name of the band (whatever that menas), would say “I went to see a The Who concert”? ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138/36 "2008-06-17T18:56:53Z")
Names of sports teams are invariably preceded by “the”, but nobody ever claims the “the” is part of the team name, or capitalizes it. Let the record show that the “the” in my user name shall not be capitalized, lest I be considered Pretentious. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138/37 "2008-06-17T19:09:24Z")
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink] Here’s what bothers me: When TV announcers say things like “Stay tuned for a new _The Simpsons_ coming up next!” “a new The”? [/QUOTE] Is this common? I’ve never heard this usage and, I agree, it really grates. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138/38 "2008-06-17T19:20:23Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] My rule of thumb is this - if you could concevably drop the definite article, then it shouldn’t be capitalized. For instance: “She’s a New York Times reporter” [/QUOTE] What if the New York Times itself considers its name to be “The New York Times” (see masthead)? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138/39 "2008-06-17T19:37:53Z")
[QUOTE=5-4-Fighting] What if the New York Times itself considers its name to be “The New York Times” (see masthead)? [/QUOTE] Doesn’t matter. It’s still not a _The New York Times_ reporter. English trumps corporate bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138/40 "2008-06-17T20:09:11Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] Doesn’t matter. It’s still not a _The New York Times_ reporter. English trumps corporate bullshit. [/QUOTE] No, I meant specifically, not the example article given, but the definite article used in their masthead: _The New York Times_ Is it"I always read _The New York Times_," according to what they call themselves, or is it "I always read the _New York Times_ based on the rule of thumb I quoted about definite articles. I was basing my question both on the practice I’ve seen in _The New Yorker_ magazine when referring to the NYT (and other “The” publications), and the AP Stylebook rule cited earlier, indicating you should go with what the publication calls itself. I know it’s not “a The New York Times reporter” – that would be silly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thethethethe-sometimes-its-just-the/453138.md?page=3)