# The thread for flames about Ayn Rand **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 16, 2001, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thread-for-flames-about-ayn-rand/76563 "2001-08-16T14:54:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2001, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thread-for-flames-about-ayn-rand/76563/61 "2001-08-21T02:28:51Z")
Could someone quote from, or at least put a link to, the review discribing Habitat for Humanity as evil? Perhaps one of the Freepers? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2001, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thread-for-flames-about-ayn-rand/76563/62 "2001-08-21T02:37:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > She calls someone a “bastard” because they stated that it was pretty damn disgusting (not in so many words) that the US is about 6 percent of the population, yet consumes 35 percent of the resources OUTSIDE the US (or something similar). > > Yeah, nice woman. I’d be interested in hearing your analysis of a person who told you you were damn disgusting because you “hoarded” a higher percentage of goods than someone else. I see the man’s comment as lacking an understanding of the world’s situation, nonetheless (many of) the peaceful, honest reasons America has for achieving its success. What do you see? Are you disgusting compared to the homeless man because you eat better than him? I agree that the man was a bastard (if that is all he said). He might try thinking sometime before opening his mouth. > [@](#): > > …facts are facts that nothing is so black and white as she suggests. I am unable to meaningfully parse this statement. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2001, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thread-for-flames-about-ayn-rand/76563/63 "2001-08-21T02:50:33Z")
Oh, and since this thread is for flames about Ayn Rand, allow me to add one. What the fuck ever happened to my goddam copy of _Atlas Shrugged_. I can’t seem to find the fucking thing anywhere. I’m pretty sure I’ve looked everywhere it could possibly be, to no avail. Sure, I’ve got _The Fountainhead_ around, but that’s hardly a substitute. Fuck. Must have eloped into the void with my Bob Marley CD, which is not a pairing I would have ever expected. ---
**Author:** ![DPWhite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d26b3c/32.png) [@DPWhite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPWhite)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2001, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thread-for-flames-about-ayn-rand/76563/64 "2001-08-21T03:14:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by DPWhite \* > > \*\* > > > > Ayn Rand was one of the most tedious writers ever to grace bookstore shelves. > > \*\* > > Which is relevant how? > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\* > > The fact that she put her serious political philosophy in the form of fiction was, to put it generously, novel. (Pun intended.) Real political philosophers don’t set up thousand page straw men arguments. To read really great political philosophy, start with Aristotle (Plato if you insist), Machiavelli (Discourses, not the Prince (Prince is a light read)), Hobbes, Locke, Hegel etc. > > \*\* > > Didn’t Plato’s Republic have a lot of fictional characters and situations? Isn’t it also believed that Plato wrote about Atlantis to show how the negative side of humanity can bring down an advanced civilization? > > Marc \*\* Well, Mel, if that is your real name, this is a flame Ayn Rand thread, and when I write that she is tedious, that is a flame. That is how it is relevant. I’d draw you a picture (a picture is worth a thousand words), but nothing can compare to the experience of spending a thousand pages getting to know John Galt with full knowledge that it is irrelevant, and tedious. Yes, Plato used the a technique having his “actors” debate the merits of “hypothetical” situations, thereafter called Socratic method after his main character (based on Plato’s teacher Socrates). Plato in all of these dialoges is full of poop, just like Rand. But he was a much better writer and invented logic in his spare time. (I’m an Aristotelian far more than a Platonist, just in case no one here has ever noticed. Of course Aristotle made more than his share of mistakes too.) Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance points out why Plato is full of poop. Rand is full of poop for the same reason. If you want to skip the college pop psychology of it, skip to the end where he confronts his professor and says why Plato is wrong. This isn’t to say that freedom, liberty, self-determination et al aren’t great, they are. But there is no excuse for being tedious. DOH!! ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2001, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thread-for-flames-about-ayn-rand/76563/65 "2001-08-21T13:18:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DPWhite \* > This isn’t to say that freedom, liberty, self-determination et al aren’t great, they are. But there is no excuse for being tedious. Wait, are you saying that you agree with Rand except for her method of presentation? ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2001, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thread-for-flames-about-ayn-rand/76563/66 "2001-08-21T13:33:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*One was a copy of her writing notes in the margins of various articles. She calls someone a “bastard” because they stated that it was pretty damn disgusting (not in so many words) that the US is about 6 percent of the population, yet consumes 35 percent of the resources OUTSIDE the US (or something similar). > > Yeah, nice woman. Despite her little, A is A, facts are facts that nothing is so black and white as she suggests. > \*\* Oh come on, Guin, think about that a second. The United States consumes a huge percentage of the resources outside the United States because the United States exports huge amounts of its resources to be consumed abroad. The one pays for the other. Surely you don’t imagine that foreign countries are giving us their resources for free? I don’t know if the guy who wrote the article was a bastard deliberately distorting facts or just a sloppy thinker, but either way we shouldn’t take his “disgusting” inference at face value. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2001, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thread-for-flames-about-ayn-rand/76563/67 "2001-08-21T14:58:13Z")
No, you come on. When people in the third world are starving, because we control all of their land, their lives, their government…I’m sorry, that’s immoral, to my mind. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2001, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thread-for-flames-about-ayn-rand/76563/68 "2001-08-21T16:04:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > **When people in the third world are starving, because we control all of their land, their lives, their government…** I am not certain of which conspiracy magazine you subscribe to but can you tell me so I can sample their theories? I seem to hear most gripes about the US being about our “greedy isolationistic attitude” or some such drivel, holding inaction against us. Not that I mind if you are on the other side, of course, I just don’t understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2001, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thread-for-flames-about-ayn-rand/76563/69 "2001-08-21T17:21:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*No, you come on. When people in the third world are starving, because we control all of their land, their lives, their government…I’m sorry, that’s immoral, to my mind. \*\* We don’t control all of the Third World’s land. Not even close. And if you believe America controls the Third World governments, take a look at the voting records in the UN General Assembly: the Group of 77 votes consistently against us. I would ask you to bear in mind also that America is one of the largest agricultural exporters in the world. Without America, Third World famine would be much, much more common than it is today. The 35 (or whatever) percent of the world’s resources America consumes pays for those agricultural exports. Can you imagine what would happen to the Third World if America weren’t there to buy their sugar, fruits, timber, ores, petroleum, coal, etc.? The mass unemployment that would result in countries where unemployment means you starve? America is not starving the Third World, it is feeding it. If you must blame America for the woes of the underdeveloped economies of the world, blame us for financing guys like Mobutu Sese Seko or Antonio Somoza, the kleptocrats who actually rip off their own nations. That is a legitimately shameful thing America has done. But for Chrissakes, don’t “help” the world’s poor by asking the market they depend upon for their livelihood to stop “consuming” their resources. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2001, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thread-for-flames-about-ayn-rand/76563/70 "2001-08-21T17:36:11Z")
That’s who I am blaming-people like Somoza and Noriega and Pinochet. We have, at times, controlled the majority of land in Central America. ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2001, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thread-for-flames-about-ayn-rand/76563/71 "2001-08-21T19:00:34Z")
OK then. Can we move away now from blaming Rand for getting hot and bothered about this guy calling it disgusting for America to consume X percent of the rest of the world’s resources? Whatever Rand’s faults, and they were many, she was never one to defend government “looters” like Somoza, Pinochet, or Mobutu. Her complaint was that this guy was attacking Americans’ consumption of what they has fairly bought and paid for, without which consumption the unindustrialized world would have to rely completely on subsistence farming and its attendant mass famines and death. At worst, she was rushing to judgment by calling him “bastard” instead of deluded. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-thread-for-flames-about-ayn-rand/76563.md?page=3)