# the "three strike law" ?!&# - what the hell is wrong with you Americans **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 5, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800 "2003-01-05T19:14:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800/21 "2003-01-05T20:11:34Z")
In fact, [here’s](http://www.kamsa.com/racism/life.html) a good example of what I’m talking about. This is a case in which a 13-year old boy killed a playmate. Under Florida law first degree murder of a child carries a **mandatory** sentence of life without parole, extenuating circumstances be damed. Even the prosecutor - the friggin’ **PROSECUTOR** - thinks that’s too severe for this particular crime. Heck, even Jeb Bush is troubled by it and is considering reducing the sentence. Again, it’s the mandatory sentencing part of the three strikes law that bothers me. > [@](#): > > By that logic a judge could sentence someone to probation for his third first-degree murder. Yes, that’s right they could, but they won’t. Mandatory sentencing was a knee-jerk over-reaction to the public perception that judges were getting too lenient. This is a case in which the solution is worse than the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800/22 "2003-01-05T20:12:27Z")
PS: Jerry Dewayne Williams was released after serving six years of his sentence, following a series of appeals. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800/23 "2003-01-05T20:13:30Z")
Can I just put in a couple of links to the story the OP is referring to? In the red corner we have [http://www.facts1.com/general/news.htm](http://www.facts1.com/general/news.htm) In the blue corner we have [http://www.threestrikes.org/ja\_pg21.html](http://www.threestrikes.org/ja_pg21.html) carry on now ---
**Author:** ![Macro\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Macro\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Macro_Man)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800/24 "2003-01-05T20:15:22Z")
As is often the case, I concur with Gobear. Why is it any of your business how we treat our criminals? From what I’ve seen, we have some of the most fucked up criminals in this country than in an any other. I’ve always understood Three Strikes to relate to serious offenses, associated with violence. The US is quite civilized and prosperous. But with great entitlement comes great responsibility. If you can’t live within our civilized confines, then go the fuck somewhere else. Unfortunately we can’t just drop off criminals in international waters and tell them don’t come back. The next best place is in prison. And you know what? I would suppport a “Three Violent Strikes and You’re Dead” law. How many attempted murders, rapes, kidnappings should you be able to perpetrate before you should cease to be? And if my wife/child is violent crime number three (or number one, come to think about it), the safest place you can be is in prison. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800/25 "2003-01-05T20:22:29Z")
I say deport all three-felony criminals to the OP’s country, which apparantly is far more “sivilized.” Then again, maybe it would be cruel and unusual to subject American criminals to have to live with a bunch of SANCTIMONIOUS FUCKING LOUDMOUTH DUMBASS UNGRATEFUL BASTARD CREEPS! I’d explain further, but as a Canadian, I’m polite by nature. ---
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800/26 "2003-01-05T20:23:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Hey, buster, it’s not your country, it’s ours, so why don’t you fuck right off? Let’s be clear - I am in no way backing up **naxox** here. But come on, **gobear** - that’s your argument? That because he’s not American he doesn’t get to comment on what goes on there? Feel free to never say anything about another country’s laws again then. His has his facts wrong and he’s a dick, but “You’re not American, fuck off” is not an argument, it’s arrogance. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800/27 "2003-01-05T20:25:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* > **I think that the “three strikes” law is being over-used. I think that it can be a good tool to keep a small percentage of the criminal community off of the streets. But I don’t think that it should be used arbitrarily or out of laziness, political reasons, or a “cover your ass” mentality.** But the very problem of the three-strikes laws is that they can’t be over-used or under-used. The crime either fits the three-strikes definition or it doesn’t. There’s no room for judgement of discretion. > [@](#): > > How would _you_ keep violent criminals off of the streets? Sentence the SOB’s to life in prison without parole if it makes sense, just take a look at all the circumstances in the case before doing so. And, **Duck** , even inarticulate rants can provide useful information. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800/28 "2003-01-05T20:27:56Z")
There is ususally more to the story. This guy didn’t just snatch a piece of pizza from a counter where no one was looking. He terrorized a group of children and stole their meal. I wonder what the circumstances were of his other robbery and attempted robbery. Plus he only served six years anyway. I clearly remember the first three strikes guy in Calfornia. His third strike was a day or two after the law started. The headline read “Man’s third strike was theft of 38 cents.” Except is wasn’t really his third strike. It was like his 10th strike but the law wasn’t in effect for his other ones and he was released to sin again and again. Oh, and the 38 cents, he severely beat the crap out of a drunk and stole everything the drunk had which happened to be 38 cents. I do have a problem with some aspects of mandatory sentencing. I think that three strikes should be available for the judge to use but not mandatory. The case the **pravnik** cites is a good example of where is shouldn’t have been used and I hope the Supreme Court agrees. The law needs tweaking but on the whole it’s a good thing. Haj ---
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800/29 "2003-01-05T20:30:39Z")
> [@](#): > > As is often the case, I concur with Gobear. Why is it any of your business how we treat our criminals? From what I’ve seen, we have some of the most fucked up criminals in this country than in an any other. I’ve always understood Three Strikes to relate to serious offenses, associated with violence. And what I said to **Gobear** applies to you too, **Macro Man**. What business is it of someone who is not American to comment on the way America treats its criminals? By the same logic, what business is it of a person from any country to comment on another’s? Or is it just America that shouldn’t have to put up with people from other countries having opinions on how they run things? You ask why it’s any business of his how you treat criminals. Perhaps it’s his business because he’s a human being, much the same way it’s America’s and the UK’s business to have opinions on how Saddam treats his criminals. Because we’re part of a wider world. ---
**Author:** ![Naxox\_dec.2002](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/13edae/32.png) [@Naxox\_dec.2002](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxox_dec.2002)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800/30 "2003-01-05T20:33:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tapioca Dextrin \* > \*\*Can I just put in a couple of links to the story the OP is referring to? > In the red corner we have [http://www.facts1.com/general/news.htm](http://www.facts1.com/general/news.htm) > > In the blue corner we have [http://www.threestrikes.org/ja\_pg21.html](http://www.threestrikes.org/ja_pg21.html) > > carry on now \*\* I read some of the material in the first link. This is what I’ve been talking about It’s cruel to destroy a mans life just fore petty-theaft. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800/31 "2003-01-05T20:42:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Naxox\_dec.2002 \* > \*\* > It’s cruel to destroy a mans life just fore petty-theaft. \*\* Yes, but as we’ve shown, we’re not talking about someone who just woke up one morning and decided to commit their first petty theft. These are people who have already committed crimes (and in most states, violent crimes), who know what punishment in jail means and, in many cases, already know how many strikes they have against them and, knowing the punishment, still choose to commit the crime. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![SpaceDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spacedog/32/9932_2.png) [@SpaceDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpaceDog)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800/32 "2003-01-05T20:44:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bnorton \* > **But the very problem of the three-strikes laws is that they can’t be over-used or under-used. The crime either fits the three-strikes definition or it doesn’t. There’s no room for judgement of discretion.** OK, I’m woefully underinformed about America so perhaps you can help fight my ignorance. The ‘three strikes’ rule or any other varient of it – does it remove the decision completely from the judge. What I’m asking is if I commit three qualifing crimes and am found guilty is the judge compelled to give me a certain sentance. Is this along the same lines as the zero tolerance policies ? I guess I’m asking what circumstances are taken into account – if I’m a reformed criminal with two convictions and I get done twenty years later am I still struck out. I know these things will vary across states but I’m trying to get an idea – also what are Americans attitudes to this. For what it’s worth I don’t necessarily disagree with the idea I would just be concerned if the whole thing was ‘set in stone’ so to speak. > [@](#): > > \*\*And, **Duck** , even inarticulate rants can provide useful information. \*\* I’m attempting to prove that, although the rant does seem more like random taunting than anything else. SD ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800/33 "2003-01-05T20:46:36Z")
> [@](#): > > That because he’s not American he doesn’t get to comment on what goes on there? No, Francesca, we’re objecting because for no particular reason and with no prior warning he suddenly got right in our faces with, “What the hell is wrong with you Americans?” If he just wanted to discuss our penal code, there are other, and better, ways of phrasing it. :rolleyes: And goodness knows, we’ve certainly had plenty of Canuck/Yank and Brit/Yank back-and-forths in the Pit, most of them fairly civilized discussions, when all’s said and done, so it’s not like we can’t take “constructive criticism” from outsiders. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800/34 "2003-01-05T20:48:15Z")
> [@](#): > > The quality of mercy is not strain’d. > It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven > Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest: > It blesseth him that gives, and him that takes. > 'Tis mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes > The throned monarch better than his crown. > His scepter shows the force of temporal power, > The attribute to awe and majesty, > Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings; > But mercy is above this sceptered sway; > It is enthroned in the heart of kings; > It is an attribute to God himself; > And earthly power doth then show likest God’s > When mercy seasons justice. We Americans like “once size fits all” solutions. But one size very often _doesn’t_ fit everyone. I disagree with “three strikes” laws because, as **bnorton** said, they leave no lattitude. I think that habitual criminals _should_ receive harsher sentences _for the latest crime they commit_. For example, Jerry Dewayne Williams commited crimes before swiping the pizza. What is the penalty for petty theft? I don’t know. But let’s say it’s anything from probation to three years in prison. I think “three strikes” laws should be written so that the convicted person receives the maximum sentence allowed for the current crime. So Jerry Dewayne Williams would have been sentenced to three years. If you want to get tough, then they could be written to mandate a term from the maximum sentence to twice the maximum sentence; in this example, three to six years. What I _don’t_ think we should have are laws that mandate 25 years to life regardless of the offence. Americans pride themselves on their sense of fair-play. Therefore I think that “three strikes” laws should be written so that there is more lattitude in sentencing. As they are now, it has been demonstrated that they are sometimes unfair. As to “How would _you_ keep violent criminals off of the streets?”, that question was directed toward **Naxox\_dec.2002**. And regarding **Gobear** ’s post, I agree with **Francesca** that unless we want to stop telling other countries how to handle their internal affairs, then we should be willing to accept criticism from people of other countries. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800/35 "2003-01-05T20:54:12Z")
I have read many threads on this Board, in which Europeans complain about how violent the US is. Now, we have a complaint about our (admittedly imperfect) attempts to fix our problems. California did a poor job, but there are mechanisms for change that are being used. The OP is getting too hot under the collar. ---
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800/36 "2003-01-05T20:58:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by **Naxox\_dec.2002** \* > It’s cruel to destroy a mans life just fore petty-theaft. When push comes to shove, I’m against “three-strikes” for pretty much exactly the reasons outlined by **bnorton** (it helps that I’m from California, the foremost example of the idiocy of overly strict mandatory sentencing laws). But, as an aside, when it comes down to it, living in a state that has such laws, and having already committed two crimes that fall under the “three-strike” statute, wouldn’t it occur to any halfway intelligent person that it would be a good idea to try your darnedest to _avoid_ committing any crimes? I mean, almost every single example I’ve seen used against the “three-strikes” concept, my first thought is _that idiot did what?!_ On preview, I like **Johnny L.A.**'s idea for re-framing the law. ---
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800/37 "2003-01-05T20:59:30Z")
**DDG** - the phrase “it’s not your country, it’s ours, so why don’t you fuck right off?” isn’t civilised discussion. He could’ve phrased it better and he’s got his facts wrong. I’ve said so too. But for **Gobear** to say “it’s not your country, it’s ours, so why don’t you fuck right off” isn’t debating and it isn’t responding to what he said. It’s addressing the fact that he dared to say something in the first place. Putting aside the issue of **naxox** being an in-your-face dick, what I take issue with is that attitude - the one that says “it’s not your country, fuck off”. I’m not American, it’s not my country. Do I get to have an opinion about America? Yes I do. So does everyone else. I know we’ve had plenty of Canuck/Yank and Brit/Yank discussions and I completely agree - most of them are fairly civilised discussions. I’d like to keep it that way, which is why I object to the attitude that because the OP is not American he should shut up. Destroy his arguments in other ways, god knows it’s not hard, but don’t simply say “It’s not your country, you don’t get a say”. ---
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800/38 "2003-01-05T21:01:26Z")
Blimey, could I repeat myself any more than I did in that last post? Apologies for that. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800/39 "2003-01-05T21:12:30Z")
**Naxox** , it’s very flattering that you seem to think that the SDMB is the one authoritative source on what US citizens think and why, but really, you expect too much of us. Personally, I think that life in prison is too harsh a sentence for a petty theft, and illustrates that in at least some states, "three- (or two-) strike laws should be rewritten to focus on aggravated or violent crimes. It’s true that some states impose these excessive penalties. It’s also true, apparently, that you based your OP rant on hearsay, and couldn’t be bothered to verify your facts before posting. This suggests that you are not particularly interested in an answer to your question, and that you are, in fact, a bigot. Now I’ll ask you a direct question: why have you been so confrontational in your posts here? ---
**Author:** ![Dryga\_Yes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@Dryga\_Yes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dryga_Yes)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800/40 "2003-01-05T21:14:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Hey, buster, it’s not your country, it’s ours, so why don’t you fuck right off? \*\* I hope you extend the same courtesy towards Iranians who want to stone adulterers and cut the hands off thieves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-three-strike-law-what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-americans/146800.md?page=3)