Granted, that it wasn’t “debating”, to simply tell him to fuck off, but then, this isn’t Great Debates.
We’re not objecting solely to the fact that he’s a Dang Foreigner daring to criticise Us Americans–we’re also objecting to the fact that he registered only a week ago, has had very little to say for himself outside of his borderline anti-Semitic “Israel stay the hell out of the EU” Pit thread, and then suddenly here he is, rudely questioning the American penal code, with a bare-minimum one-line OP. It looks like random sniping to me, too.
All things taken together, Gobear beat me to it, actually.
That’s not what Gobear said though, is it? He didn’t tell him to fuck off because he’s new and clearly antagonistic. He told him to fuck off because he’s not American.
I think that from a human rights perspective, any nation that incarcerates a significantly higher proportion of its citizens than many other first world nations should have the reasons for such a high incarceration rate brought under close international scrutiny. Human rights go well beyond national boundaries, and I am concerned when scrutiny of human rights issues is rejected on the grounds that the alleged problems are nation in character and thus not open for scrutiny. That’s the sort of nonsense one hears from tin pot dictators and totalitarian regimes.
Here is the sort of disproportion that concerns me, and makes me think that judicial discretion within legislated bounds would be preferable to an arbitrary three-strikes:
New York Times On-line Edition, 2 January 2003
Sidebar with source cited as Department of Criminal Policy, Ministry of Justice of Finand
Number of prisoners per 100,000 inhabitants in 2002
702 Untied States
664 Russia
131 Portugal
126 Britain
116 Spain
97 Germany
93 Italy
90 Luxembourg
87 Netherlands
85 Austria
85 Belgium
78 Ireland
76 Greece
75France
64 Sweden
62 Denmark
52 Finland
The main point behind three strikes and similar laws is that some people have lost trust in judges ability to use discretion. The impetus behind them was that ‘some damn bleeding-heart no-brain no-ball judges keep putting rapists and murderers back on the street’.
Someone can go and look through piles of court reports and find cases where three strikes laws were implemented in cases where most people find them excessive. Someone else can go through court reports and find examples of where judges used their descretion incompetantly and put the public at risk by weak sentencing. I have no idea which has happened more frequently, or with greater severity. Like everything else it’s a grey area. Where do we want the pedulum to swing between sometimes draconian set-in-stone guidelines, or giving greater discretion to judges who are people and are as fallible as anyone else.
Yes. IANAL so I don’t claim this to be a definitive answer. Keep in mind also that this will vary from state to state. Perhaps a real lawyer with some actual experience in this area will step up and spell out the details.
Nonsense. If he had phrased his OP differently (and if he had not already made it clear he’s an anti-American bigot), I would have given him a different response. but because he is a dick and he does have his facts wrong, and because he titled his thread “what the hell is wrong with you Americans” he may, as I have already indicated, fuck right off.
Addressing the issue of the “3-strikes” law is one thing, using it as a jumping off point for yet another bout of ill-informed prejudiced rantings against “you Americans” is quite another.
FTR, I disapprove of the “3-strikes law” because it, like other “zero tolerance” policies, substitutes rigidity for common sense.
That’s not what you said though, is it? What you said was “Hey, buster, it’s not your country, it’s ours, so why don’t you fuck right off?” Which to me translated pretty much as “It’s not your country, it’s ours, so why don’t you fuck off?”. You weren’t telling him to fuck off because he got his facts wrong, you were saying he should fuck off because it’s not his country.
So, do the countries at the bottom of the list just do a shitty job in catching and prosecuting it’s criminals? No, probably not. Far from proudly waving the American flag, I believe we probably have far worse crime (in magnitude and viciousness) than any civilized country should. Part of this is undoubtedly due to our stupid antidrug laws. Part of it is due to the fact that America A) has a disproportionate number of fuckwits, B) most people in America have moved past hunger and shelter on Maslow’s heirarchy of needs, and can focus on acting like total shits, and C) there’s a gazillion guns lying around the country, enabling people to act like fuckwits in a much more efficient manner.
And Dryga_Yes, I would have no problem instituting punishments like the stoning to death/cutting off hands punishment in America, for certain crimes (except for that pesky thing called the Constitution). We have no graduated system of punishing increasingly negative behaviour other than prison/death. For many criminals, jail just does not seem to be a deterrent to violent crimes. For some people, prison appears to be an accepted part of life, even a right of passage.
An OP gets the responses it deserves. If he had written a reasoned post explaining why he disapproves of the California “3-strikes” law, I would have, in turn, given a reasoned, patient response. But one-line OPS that contain nothing more than a blanket condemantion of all Americans written by an obviously prejudiced newbie do not deserve reasoned, patient responses.
Originally posted by Dryga_yes
If I had written an OP that was titled “cutting off hands-what the hell is wrong with you Iranians” I would have my head (deservedly) handed to me for writing an inflammatory, bigoted post. But if the topic is America, and in this case, not even all of America but only one state, then bigotry and hateful blanket condemantions of all Americans is acceptable.
And frankly, Francesca there’s a degree of truth to that. While the vast majority of non-American Dopers (and people in general) are fine, intelligent human beings, a small minority, like Noxious are mono-cultural Euro-trash: they can’t conceive of a society that functions a different way, and therefore condemn anything they don’t understand. These are the assholes (like the OP) who see nothing good in America.
And frankly, while I agree that human rights issues are a legitamate topic of discussion, the “three strikes” rule isn’t a human rights issue any more than manditory sentences are. You can argue if it’s good or bad, but to call it a “human rights issue” is to marginalize female genital mutliation, gulags, death camps and other real horrors. IMO.
Speaking of acting like total shits, some moron decided he would have a shoot out with the local police force here in Davis yesterday. Of course, he couldn’t be bothered with doing that in the nice big empty field on the other side of the county road from this neighbourhood. No, he had to do that in the store across the street from my apartment. He missed the police and the police shot him in the abdomen. Two of his pals decided they would interefere with the police and thus they also got arrested.
Now, if he’s already been convicted of two violent felonies, I hope he does get sent up for life. This is a nice quiet area and there’s no reason at all to go around shooting at police, especially if you’re going to miss the police and chance having the bullet hit someone, especially one of the children, living in the apartments here.
The OP was puerile and half-baked. So you should respond in kind? I say again - I’m not arguing that his point, if he had one, was correct. But you didn’t address his point - you addressed the fact that he made it in the first place. You took exception to the fact that he said anything at all since it’s not his country. He may not deserve a reasoned patient response, but that’s besides the point.
What you said boils down to “It’s not your country, you don’t get to have an opinion about it”. Well, yes he does. And so do I. We’ve had lots of reasonable intra-country debates on these here boards and I appreciate them. I know you’ve been to Europe and Korea and you’re an intelligent man. So I’m calling you on the fact that you explicitly told someone to fuck off because they criticised American law while not being American. This particular OP may have been worthy of your contempt, but not because the OP is not American.
