# 'The Tiffany Effect': False anachronisms **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 10, 2026, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tiffany-effect-false-anachronisms/1032267 "2026-08-10T13:12:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2026, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tiffany-effect-false-anachronisms/1032267/201 "2026-08-21T15:20:17Z")
> [@solost](#): > > From the old ‘Reuben and Rachel’ folk song, I assume. Not really a folk song: > “ **Reuben and Rachel** ” is a [popular song](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_song "Popular song") with words written by Harry Birch and music by William Gooch, originally published in Boston in 1871 by [White, Smith, & Perry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White,_Smith,_&_Perry "White, Smith, & Perry").[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuben_and_Rachel#cite_note-1) The song regained popularity in the 20th century as a [children’s song](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children's_song "Children's song").[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuben_and_Rachel#cite_note-2) I didn’t realize that this song was basis for the satirical Lincoln, Lincoln I’ve been Thinkin’ What on Earth have you been drinkin’? ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2026, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tiffany-effect-false-anachronisms/1032267/202 "2026-08-21T15:34:22Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Not really a folk song: > > > “ **Reuben and Rachel** ” is a [popular song](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_song "Popular song") with words written by Harry Birch and music by William Gooch, originally published in Boston in 1871 by [White, Smith, & Perry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White,_Smith,_&_Perry "White, Smith, & Perry").[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuben_and_Rachel#cite_note-1) The song regained popularity in the 20th century as a [children’s song](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children's_song "Children's song").[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuben_and_Rachel#cite_note-2) It’s a traditional, ‘popular song’ written long ago, with varying lyrics, performed by various people over time. How else would you define a ‘folk song’? The description you posted is basically the classic definition. Many folk songs also become popular as children’s songs. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2026, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tiffany-effect-false-anachronisms/1032267/203 "2026-08-21T16:24:22Z")
The variation, plus informal performance contexts, makes it a folksong, even if it didn’t originate as such. Not all iterations are folksongs even now, though: depends on the situation of performance. —actual folklorist ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2026, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tiffany-effect-false-anachronisms/1032267/204 "2026-08-21T17:03:15Z")
> [@solost](#): > > It’s a traditional, ‘popular song’ written long ago, with varying lyrics, performed by various people over time. How else would you define a ‘folk song’? The description you posted is basically the classic definition. Many folk songs also become popular as children’s songs. > Folk Song: > > 1. a song originating among the people of a country or area, passed by oral tradition from one singer or generation to the next, often existing in several versions, and marked generally by simple, modal melody and stanzaic, narrative verse. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2026, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tiffany-effect-false-anachronisms/1032267/205 "2026-08-21T17:22:15Z")
I think your own supplied definition still qualifies ‘Reuben and Rachel’ as a folk song, IMO. It may have been officially published with authors, but it’s been played by many different people over the years, it’s definitely a simple melody with a narrative verse, and the lyric versions have changed over time. Sorry CalMeacham-- I do respect and defer to your vast knowledge of the history of pop culture 99% of the time, but I’m sticking to my guns on this one. And thanks @Dr.Drake, for backing me up. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2026, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tiffany-effect-false-anachronisms/1032267/206 "2026-08-21T18:31:20Z")
I reminded of the episode of _The Simpsons_ where they met a hobo who regaled them with (his version of) tales of American folklore– including the story of Tom Sawyer, which Lisa insisted is a novel by author Mark Twain. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2026, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tiffany-effect-false-anachronisms/1032267/207 "2026-08-21T19:28:58Z")
> [@solost](#): > > Sorry CalMeacham-- I do respect and defer to your vast knowledge of the history of pop culture 99% of the time, but I’m sticking to my guns on this one. And thanks @Dr.Drake, for backing me up. Thanks for the kind words. That’s the definition I’ve always heard and used for folk songs, which I distinguiish from songs recently published and of which we know the authors, regardless of their use. Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to cut the pages in my copy of The Arabian Nights. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2026, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tiffany-effect-false-anachronisms/1032267/208 "2026-08-21T20:21:09Z")
I mean, if you get down to it, every folk song was written by someone. Sometimes we don’t know who it was, but that says something about us and what we know, not about the nature of the song itself. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2026, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tiffany-effect-false-anachronisms/1032267/209 "2026-08-21T21:04:22Z")
A fuller answer now that I’m in front of my laptop: The definition quoted above is a little old-fashioned (folksongs need not be narrative, for instance). In general, though, the popular understanding of folklore is state-of-the-art 1950, and things have moved on. What determines whether something is a folksong isn’t its origins, but its use: do people perform it in informal contexts? Teaching children “folksongs” in school isn’t an informal context, so those aren’t folksongs, even if they were. A lot of music-hall ballads and such were never all that far removed from the folk ballad tradition in the first place, and the more popular were easily absorbed back into folk tradition, which is where the variation sets in. But people are still making studio recordings of those same folksongs. Then there’s the whole genre of folk music, which mostly has nothing to do with folklore, but was named because a lot of musicians started recording and performing songs they’d learned in folk tradition. In other words, things go in an out of folk tradition, so pointing to a particular melody or text isn’t really enough to gauge whether something is a folksong. “Reuben and Rachel” certainly gets performed in folkloric contexts, by people who don’t know or care about its origin. ---
**Author:** ![Jaycat.again](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat.again/32/11525_2.png) [@Jaycat.again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaycat.again)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2026, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tiffany-effect-false-anachronisms/1032267/210 "2026-08-21T23:56:54Z")
“All music is folk music. I ain’t never heard a horse sing a song.” --Louis Armstrong. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2026, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tiffany-effect-false-anachronisms/1032267/211 "2026-08-22T15:29:11Z")
Still, if your life depended on it you might try for a year to teach a horse to sing. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2026, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tiffany-effect-false-anachronisms/1032267/212 "2026-08-22T17:19:49Z")
“Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.” –Robert Heinlein ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2026, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tiffany-effect-false-anachronisms/1032267/213 "2026-08-22T17:38:07Z")
That’s a different reference. The fable is that a ruler is going to execute a prisoner. The prisoner tells the ruler that if you let me live I can teach your horse to sing in five years. The ruler accepts. The prisoners friend says, “are you crazy. That’s impossible.” The prisoner says, “Five years is a long time. In five years, I could die, the ruler could die, the horse could sing.” ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2026, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tiffany-effect-false-anachronisms/1032267/214 "2026-08-31T18:26:35Z")
Almond milk might seem like a new-fangled thing that came about with the rise of fancy coffee shops. It did to me anyway. But it actually goes back to at least the Middle Ages. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2026, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tiffany-effect-false-anachronisms/1032267/215 "2026-08-31T18:43:21Z")
Yeah, most medieval diets were very plant heavy. Not vegan, but not as much meat as you might expect. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2026, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tiffany-effect-false-anachronisms/1032267/216 "2026-08-31T19:20:53Z")
And there were plenty of “fast days” where everyone\* was forbidden to eat meat (including dairy). - Some people were excepted from a full fast, including people who were sick. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2026, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tiffany-effect-false-anachronisms/1032267/217 "2026-08-31T19:26:38Z")
And they had a few creative definitions of “meat”. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/FFpip-wNJKg/maxresdefault.jpg "Henry VIII's No Meat Fridays | Foul Feasting | Horrible Histories") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFpip-wNJKg) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tiffany-effect-false-anachronisms/1032267.md?page=10)