# The time has come to speak the TRUTH about Middle-earth! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 25, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776 "2010-03-25T17:57:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776/21 "2010-03-25T19:36:20Z")
My personal Middle Earth heresy is that there is no magic in the World. Everything that seems magical is simply sufficiently advanced technology that the other Children of Eru (or that hack translator Tolkien 😉 ) cannot understand. Elves are both intelligent and long-lived; they can advance a field of research far beyond what Man can do in a limited lifetime. Nor is there anything supernatural. Eru, the Valar and other Ainur, are simply beings with exceptional technology. Eru designed his servants and the World, then built the servants and programmed then with the World plan, and finally built then world, with the servants executing their instructions. The “rebelliousness” of Melkor is simply a rationalization by the other Valar due to their lack of complete knowledge of the design. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776/22 "2010-03-25T19:50:16Z")
The entire Lord of the Rings saga is a thinly veiled retelling of the overcoming of the Neanderthals by modern man. The Orcs were our now-lost, cold weather cousins. ---
**Author:** ![AndyPolley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@AndyPolley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndyPolley)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776/23 "2010-03-25T19:51:54Z")
Oooh! I’ve been on such a Silmarillion kick lately! > [@Skald the Rhymer](#): > > He does not see through Melkor’s feigned repentance at the end of his first imprisonment, even though Ulmo and OromĂ« and, for Zeus’ sake, TULKAS see right through it. Why is this? Perhaps ManwĂ« didn’t have much experience with hearing lies? His was a forgiving soul, and his thoughts toward Melkor were of redemption. The Ainur repeated this theme later when they offer to Sauron
if he’s really, really sorry, he could come back and face the judgment of ManwĂ«. That’s pretty nice of them, all things considered. Perhaps it’s in the nature of the Valar to be kind of naĂŻve. Why is that? Eru knows what he’s doing, doesn’t he? > [@Elendil's Heir](#): > > Aragorn and Arwen probably had premarital sex. I mean, c’mon, decades of heartfelt dewy romance but no nookie? The mind boggles. I think that to the elves, if it didn’t produce a child, it didn’t count. So I’m thinking Arwen’s probably no virgin when they met either. > [@Elendil's Heir](#): > > Yes, indeed, the Council of Elrond should’ve looked more diligently into using Eagles to get the Ring into Mordor. I know, I know
 wouldn’t have been as dramatic, the Eagles were too haughty, the Nazgul would’ve been on the watch, yada yada yada. Still. I always figured that Sauron had an enchantment around Mordor to prevent the Eagles from simply flying in. Not unlike how Gondolin was safe from any flying nastys that Morgoth could come up with. That being said, the other reason to have the fellowship walk is to stay under Sauron’s radar. Sure it’s a journey wrought with peril, but it’s still better than getting blasted out of the sky by the power of the unblinking eye, or chewed up by fell beasts. > [@Elendil's Heir](#): > > Balrogs had real but vestigial wings. They couldn’t fly but damn, they looked badass. I always thought this was the obvious answer. Perhaps even ethereal wings made more from fire and darkness than real matter with the intent on instilling fear in others (like in the movie!) I don’t see why this is so hotly contested. Couldn’t the Maiar take any shape they wanted? Why not take the shape of a big scary thing? Do I have one? How about Mandos restored Beren to life, but didn’t restore his hand. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776/24 "2010-03-25T19:53:19Z")
> [@](#): > > - Aragorn and Arwen probably had premarital sex. I mean, c’mon, decades of heartfelt dewy romance but no nookie? The mind boggles. By Elvish standards, premarital sex is by definition impossible. Once they had sex, they were married. What is possible, though, is that Aragorn and Arwen had a pre-ceremonial marriage. > [@](#): > > - Aragorn shouldn’t have ruled pretty much only because of his bloodline. Much as I admire the literary notions of mythic kingship and divine right, Tolkien should’ve acknowledged the virtues of democracy and meritocracy. There was near-unanimous approval for Aragorn’s kingship, and he had just proven his merit. Nor would he have assumed the crown if he didn’t have that near-unanimous approval. > [@](#): > > - Balrogs had real but vestigial wings. They couldn’t fly but damn, they looked badass. This I’ll agree on. My personal take is that their wings are literally composed of shadow (you can do that when you’re an embodied primordial spirit), which, as you say, look badass, but won’t serve to support a corporeal form in flight (though an unclad 'rog might still be able to fly). ---
**Author:** ![Surly\_Chick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Surly\_Chick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surly_Chick)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776/25 "2010-03-25T19:56:41Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Just a damyankee joke. Some of my best friends
 well, two, anyway
 are Texans. And they both read. While moving their lips, right? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Barking\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Barking\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barking_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776/26 "2010-03-25T20:06:31Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Just a damyankee joke. Some of my best friends
 well, two, anyway
 are Texans. And they both read. Ah. Guess it just went right over my head, being texan and all 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Barking\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Barking\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barking_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776/27 "2010-03-25T20:12:26Z")
[quote=“Skald\_the\_Rhymer, post:16, topic:533776”] I’m kind of confused with where you’re going here. :DQUOTE] I was just drawing some of what I thought were interesting parallels. Forget I said anything I suppose. There’s a reason I tend to lurk instead of speak. Chuck ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776/28 "2010-03-25T20:19:07Z")
> [@AndyPolley](#): > > Oooh! I’ve been on such a Silmarillion kick lately! > Perhaps ManwĂ« didn’t have much experience with hearing lies? His was a forgiving soul, and his thoughts toward Melkor were of redemption. The Ainur repeated this theme later when they offer to Sauron
if he’s really, really sorry, he could come back and face the judgment of ManwĂ«. That’s pretty nice of them, all things considered. Perhaps it’s in the nature of the Valar to be kind of naĂŻve. Except Tulkas–TULKAS–saw through Morgoth. “He clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by.” It is also specifically said that Ulmo was not deceived, and implied that Mandos was not either. So it’s not the Valar in general who are naive; it is ManwĂ« (and, I suppose, implicitly Varda and obviously Nienna, who aided Melkor’s prayer). One would think ManwĂ« might say to himself, “Hmm. Several of my wise counselors, and the single most bad-ass of us, are worried. Maybe I should consult with Eru about this, since he’s all omniscient & stuff. Good thing I got him on speed-dial.” ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776/29 "2010-03-25T20:36:07Z")
Arda dodged a bullet with Isildur’s death. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776/30 "2010-03-25T20:41:48Z")
Sauron would have turned Middle-Earth into a high-tech paradise. > [@Barking\_Dog](#): > > Wow, that is heretical. Because of course the whole Eru/Ainur mythos is quite clearly and obviously based on judeo-christian mythology. By saying such things like Melkor is a part of Illuvatar is the same as saying the Devil is a part of God. Note I’m not disagreeing, just pointing out how heretical it is. Technically, I believe it’s the Gnostic heresy. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776/31 "2010-03-25T21:31:18Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Sauron would have turned Middle-Earth into a high-tech paradise. In the sense that the Orcs would have had lots and lots of Eorlingas and Gondorian women to rape and torture, and that they would devised many clever ways of doing so, that is undeniably true. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776/32 "2010-03-25T21:51:23Z")
Hobbits are, when _properly prepared_, the tastiest creatures in Middle Earth, a delicacy prized by the wise above all others. [QUOTE=Gandalf the Grey] Soft as butter they can be, but also tough as old tree roots. [/QUOTE] The quest for mount doom was really convoluted plot to satisfy Gandalf’s hunger for the ultimate hobbit feast, his earlier scheme to procure dragon-roasted hobbit having ended in failure. Frodo was a hobbit of prime eating age, carefully exercised, tendarised by orc-spear, marinated with spider venom, and finally fattened-up before being slaughtered and eaten on a merry sea-crossing to Aman. Both Saruman and Sauron were in on the secret, as Sauron’s message to Saruman after Pippin looked into the palantir of Orthanc makes clear. [QUOTE=Sauron] Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once. Do you understand? Just say that! [/QUOTE] Upon tasting hobbit for the first time, Gollum was so over-whelmed he lost control of himself, and toppled into a pit of lava. They really are that good. Upon his release from Orthanc, Saruman hurried north to dine on Lotho Sackville-Baggins, a crime he blamed on Grima Wormtongue. At his appearance on the steps of Bag End, he is described as “looking well-fed and well-pleased”, while Wormtongue was a bag of bones. Gandalf also let his good friend Aragorn in on the secret. It was a gift of hobbit sweetbreads that finally won him Arwen’s love. Much as the Norman’s created the New Forest as a deer hunting preserve, Aragorn and his rangers ensured that the Shire was protected. The king’s table would never want for hobbit. ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776/33 "2010-03-25T21:53:24Z")
The people of Middle Earth should not have revered Manwe and Varda as much as they did. Neither one seemed to care much for Middle Earth, being only concerned with Valinor and the heavens. The people should have devoted themselves mostly to Ulmo (who clearly cared more than any other Vala), along with Yavanna and Orome. Aule got respect from the Dwarves, but not enough from Elves and Men. In fact, almost all of the Valar earned more worship from Middle Earth than Manwe and Varda. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776/34 "2010-03-25T22:07:57Z")
There’s no way dwarves were anywhere near as badass warriors as they were portrayed. I don’t care how strong or tough you are, if your head is the same height as my bellybutton I can outrun you, I can outreach you, I can kick your ass in a hundred different ways. And the axes? Is there any way they could have picked a less appropriate weapon? No wonder they got wiped out. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776/35 "2010-03-25T22:13:06Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > There’s no way dwarves were anywhere near as badass warriors as they were portrayed. I don’t care how strong or tough you are, if your head is the same height as my bellybutton I can outrun you, I can outreach you, I can kick your ass in a hundred different ways. And the axes? Is there any way they could have picked a less appropriate weapon? No wonder they got wiped out. I’m sorry, but I fear you are confusing Dwarves with Hobbits, or perhaps Middle-earth Dwarves with Narnia Dwarfs. The creations of Aule were about 5 feet tall, which I expect is a bit higher than your belly button unless you are
um
 okay, I don’t actually know the name of anybody in the NBA. Somebody help me out. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776/36 "2010-03-25T22:25:19Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m sorry, but I fear you are confusing Dwarves with Hobbits, or perhaps Middle-earth Dwarves with Narnia Dwarfs. The creations of Aule were about 5 feet tall, which I expect is a bit higher than your belly button unless you are
um
 > > okay, I don’t actually know the name of anybody in the NBA. Somebody help me out. Ok, maybe not belly button, but they’re tiny compared to the people (humanoids) they’re fighting. Gimli had to be lifted just to see over the Helm’s Deep battlements for Pete’s sake, that guy was kicking no one’s ass. He was probably lying through his teeth throughout the contest as well, and Legolas didn’t have to heart to call him on it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776/37 "2010-03-25T22:29:10Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > A few months after the wedding, when Aragorn discovered that Elvish maidens come into heat somewhat less often than Vulcans False. Elvish **males** generally have a significantly lower sex drive than their human counterparts (and why wouldn’t they? if you’re not getting any right now there’s always next century, right?), but Elvish females don’t necessarily. The passionate intensity of human males compared to male Elves is a large part of the reason that Elf-women are sometimes tempted to mate with them, even at the cost of sacrificing millennia of togetherness for those brief few decades of hot mayfly sex. For Arwen to have borne not only Eldarion but also more than one daughter in a mere hundred years or so amounts to breeding like **rabbits** by Elvish standards. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776/38 "2010-03-25T22:36:28Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Hobbits are, when _properly prepared_, the tastiest creatures in Middle Earth, a delicacy prized by the wise above all others. > > 
his earlier scheme to procure dragon-roasted hobbit > > Frodo was a hobbit of prime eating age, carefully exercised, tenderized by orc-spear, marinated with spider venom.. > > Upon tasting hobbit for the first time, Gollum was so over-whelmed he lost control of himself
 > > It was a gift of hobbit sweetbreads that finally won him Arwen’s love
 You made me laugh. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776/39 "2010-03-25T22:39:08Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Fool of a Took! > > THAT is the best you can come up with? Seriously? SERIOUSLY? > > Hang your head in shame. My then-seven-year-old niece brought that up, as have 2,439,448 people in Texas alone. And a cartoonist on Youtube. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776/40 "2010-03-25T22:42:32Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > And a cartoonist on Youtube. Speak not to me that the works of Google. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-time-has-come-to-speak-the-truth-about-middle-earth/533776.md?page=3)