# The Titanic Disaster **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 14, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714 "2009-06-14T04:53:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714/21 "2009-06-15T23:24:50Z")
I remeber that the Californian was hove to, with the engines stopped-whatever he was guilty of, Capt. Lord was apparently a cautious mariner. He considered the ice field much too dangerous to sail through-would that Capt. Smith would have felt the same! Anyway, consider that Lord got the message, roused the radio officer, and received Titanic’s distress call. The Californian arrives 1 hour before the Tiatanic sinks-would they have been able save most of the passengers? ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714/22 "2009-06-15T23:38:26Z")
i think that the only thing titanic could have done to get california’s attention with the rockets was perhaps aim the rockets at the california. without anyone in the radio room to hear the distress call, there wasn’t much more they could do. of course shooting a flare at a ship that you hope to rescue you may instead set the rescue ship on fire. they def. could have filled the lifeboats more and used bathtubs, doors, and other floatables for people to climb up on. the trick is to keep as much of you out of the water for as long as possible. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714/23 "2009-06-15T23:54:34Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I believe by the time Rostron retired from his career at Cunard, he was captain of the _Mauretania_. (Sister ship of the _Lusitania_) > > Did anyone actually _drown_? I believe some were not able to get out of Third Class, because the gates were still locked (and no, I did not just get this from the movies – I saw this in a documentary BEFORE I even saw the movie). I don’t know offhand what Rostron’s last command was, but he did retire as Commodore of the Cunard fleet. Assuming that the question about drowning was prompted by my previous post, I was using kind of a shorthand — when most people think of death at sea, they think of drowning. In any case, I imagine that some of the engineers lived long enough to drown (if that makes sense); in addition there was the French and Italian staff of the à la carte restaurant, who were herded back to their quarters and locked in (though they may have been killed by compression when the stern section made its plunge). > [@ralph124c](#): > > I remeber that the Californian was hove to, with the engines stopped-whatever he was guilty of, Capt. Lord was apparently a cautious mariner. He considered the ice field much too dangerous to sail through-would that Capt. Smith would have felt the same! > Anyway, consider that Lord got the message, roused the radio officer, and received Titanic’s distress call. The Californian arrives 1 hour before the Tiatanic sinks-would they have been able save most of the passengers? Good question, but I kind of doubt it. I don’t know how many lifeboats the _Californian_ carried, but let’s say that there were 24 available for the transfer, with an average capacity of 70. That’s 1,680 per trip, which means that clearing the _Titanic_ would require one full load-transfer-unload cycle plus an additional return-load cycle for over half the boats. Even with superb organization and everyone remaining calm — neither of which was very likely — I don’t see that happening in an hour. The only remotely similar situation I can think of was the _Republic_ several years before, when everyone was transferred safely to the _Baltic_ except for the half-dozen or so who died in the collision with the _Florida_. But the _Republic_ stayed afloat for a couple days, so it’s not really a good comparison. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714/24 "2009-06-16T01:31:54Z")
> [@rocking\_chair](#): > > the trick is to keep as much of you out of the water for as long as possible. Second Office [Charles Lightoller](http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/c-h-lightoller-78-officer-titanic.html) stood balancing on an overturned lifeboat during the night. One survivor could not attend sporting events. The noise of the spectators reminded him of the people crying for help. More people lost their lives when the [Sultana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultana_(steamboat)) sinking in the Mississippi River near Memphis than Titanic. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714/25 "2009-06-16T01:38:04Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Second Office [Charles Lightoller](http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/c-h-lightoller-78-officer-titanic.html) stood balancing on an overturned lifeboat during the night. > > One survivor could not attend sporting events. The noise of the spectators reminded him of the people crying for help. > > More people lost their lives when the [Sultana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultana_(steamboat)) sinking in the Mississippi River near Memphis than Titanic. The greatest maritime disaster was the [_MV Wilhelm Gustloff_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Wilhelm_Gustloff) - somewhere around nine-thousand lives were lost. ---
**Author:** ![audit1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@audit1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audit1)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714/26 "2009-06-16T03:19:54Z")
[http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/californian-incident.html](http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/californian-incident.html) Link to an article which points out how little Californian with its crew of 48 and six boats could have done had it arrived ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714/27 "2009-06-16T03:23:35Z")
> [@audit1](#): > > [http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/californian-incident.html](http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/californian-incident.html) Link to an article which points out how little Californian with its crew of 48 and six boats could have done had it arrived The point was, they didn’t even make the effort, or even attempt to contact _Titanic_. ---
**Author:** ![Imasquare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714/28 "2009-06-16T03:29:09Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > This site says the _Californian_ was 17 to 20 miles distant from _Titanic_: Oh… Yes that’s too far away. For some reason I had the thought that visibility to the horizon at sea level was only about 3 miles. I guess I was wrong. Another thought I had last night was could they have used the ships powerful horns to send audible morse code signals to the Californian? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714/29 "2009-06-16T06:03:07Z")
> [@Imasquare](#): > > Oh… Yes that’s too far away. For some reason I had the thought that visibility to the horizon at sea level was only about 3 miles. I guess I was wrong. > > Another thought I had last night was could they have used the ships powerful horns to send audible morse code signals to the Californian? I do not know how far sound will travel, and it will be variable on air temp, humidity, etc. None of the few accounts I have read mention any distress sirens being used. It’s possible that Captain Smith did not use them (perhaps in fear of causing a stampede?). The testimony of the watches on both ships state that they attempted to signal the other by morse lamp, but received no reply. > **[SS Californian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Californian)** > > SS Californian was a British Leyland Line steamship. She is thought to have been the only ship within sight of RMS Titanic, or at least her rockets, during that ship's sinking. The crew took no action to assist. > The United States Senate inquiry and British Wreck Commissioner's inquiry into the sinking both concluded that many or all of the lives lost could have been saved, had Californian responded promptly to Titanic's distress rockets. The U.S. Senate inquiry was particularly critical of t... > [@wiki](#): > > Slightly before 23:00, after Californian had stopped, lights of another ship came into view on the horizon off Californian’s starboard side. To Lord, Second Officer Herbert Stone, and deck apprentice James Gibson, the ship looked like a tramp steamer, similar in size to Californian. Third Officer C.V. Groves, who was on deck with Lord, thought the lights made the ship look like a passenger liner. > > \ > > At 23:30 Lord asked Third Officer Groves to try to signal the ship on the horizon, which he estimated to be 4-5 miles (8 km) away and stopped, with a Morse lamp. The vessel never appeared to respond. Slightly after midnight Second Officer Herbert Stone took watch from Groves, while Lord went to rest in the chartroom. Stone also tried signaling the ship with the Morse lamp, also without success. Around 00:45 on 15 April Stone saw a white flash appear in the direction of the “smallish” steamer. First he thought it was a shooting star, until he saw another one. He would go on to see five rockets before being joined by the apprentice. He called down the speaking tube to Captain Lord at 01:15, but it is unclear how many he told the Captain about. Lord said he was told of one rocket and asked if it had been a company signal. Stone said he didn’t know. Lord told Stone to tell him if anything about the ship changed and to keep signaling the ship with the Morse lamp. > > \ > > Stewart woke Evans at 05:30 who then turned on the wireless and found out that Titanic had sunk overnight. Stewart took the news to Captain Lord who immediately calculated the distance between the two ships, estimated it was 19 1/2 miles (31 km) away and began steaming towards Titanic’s last reported position. > > \ > > Titanic’s Captain Edward Smith felt the ship [the Californian] was close enough that he ordered the first lifeboats launched on the port side to row over to the ship, drop off the passengers and come back to Titanic for more. The lights of the ship were seen from Titanic’s lifeboats throughout the night; one lifeboat rowed towards them, but never seemed to get any closer. I am guessing that a mast light on a dark sea must have carried pretty far that night. They may have seen each other’s masthead lights. IIRC, horizon at sea is roughly 15 miles, assuming clear weather. The masts high up can be seen further than that. Also, I have read in WW2 submarine history books that, during operations in the Sea of Okhotsk (north of Japan) has shown extreme cases of light refraction, possibly because of weird temperature and humidty layers in the air. I wonder if similar conditions could be found in the N. Atlantic that night. The ice flows were indeed further south that time of year than most sailors involved could remember seeing/hearing of. The question that occurs to me is why didn’t the watch on the _Californian_ become more proactive about the flare-rockets? I would have asked my radio operator to get out of bed, and see if the ship was in distress, or just having a party. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714/30 "2009-06-16T06:49:40Z")
If they had lashed the life boats together they would have acted like pontoons and have been more stable. A more stable platform could have taken on more passengers without tipping over. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714/31 "2009-06-16T15:00:10Z")
> [@Imasquare](#): > > Oh… Yes that’s too far away. For some reason I had the thought that visibility to the horizon at sea level was only about 3 miles. I guess I was wrong. > > Another thought I had last night was could they have used the ships powerful horns to send audible morse code signals to the Californian? Here’s a nice [horizon calculator](http://www.boatsafe.com/tools/horizon.htm). The horizon is about 3 miles away if your eyes are 6 ft above sea level. According to [this](http://www.titanic-nautical.com/titanic-facts.php), the boat deck was 60 ft above sea level, giving a horizon of 10 miles. Presumably the lookouts were higher, and the Californian was a reasonably big ship as well, so it’s likely they could see each other if they were 20 miles apart. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714/32 "2009-06-16T15:31:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If they had lashed the life boats together they would have acted like pontoons and have been more stable. A more stable platform could have taken on more passengers without tipping over. I’m sure that if they too had 97 years to think about it, they would have come up with that solution. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714/33 "2009-06-16T16:17:28Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > He also called out the off-duty fireman watch, with instructions to keep the fireboxes full. As a result, the _Carpathia_, which had a rated maximum speed of 16 knots, reached between 17.5 and 18 on its dash north. This is where I begin to wonder. The Captian could not call the off-duty fireman watch, he would not have the athority. Also extra firemen in the boiler room would only get in the way. You can only feed so much coal into a boiler until you will reach the endpoint of the firing rate. Extra coal would not mean extra pressure. The captian may have asked the Chief to get as many truns ont of the main engine as possable but there are mechanical limits. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714/34 "2009-06-16T16:25:33Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I > I am guessing that a mast light on a dark sea must have carried pretty far that night. They may have seen each other’s masthead lights. IIRC, horizon at sea is roughly 15 miles, assuming clear weather. The masts high up can be seen further than that. > > The question that occurs to me is why didn’t the watch on the _Californian_ become more proactive about the flare-rockets? I would have asked my radio operator to get out of bed, and see if the ship was in distress, or just having a party. I was once told by a deck midshipman that the horizon was 15 miles from the bridge of the ship. The radio officer had recieved one chewing out from the Titanic before going off air for the night I doubt he would have gotten up. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714/35 "2009-06-16T16:27:41Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > This is where I begin to wonder. The Captian could not call the off-duty fireman watch, he would not have the athority. Also extra firemen in the boiler room would only get in the way. You can only feed so much coal into a boiler until you will reach the endpoint of the firing rate. Extra coal would not mean extra pressure. The captian may have asked the Chief to get as many truns ont of the main engine as possable but there are mechanical limits. Forced Draft consumes coal at a hugely accelerated rate. The coal may be burnt almost as fast as you can shovel it in. The “black gang” will get tired, and need replacing after a time, thus having the off duty watch on hand to rotate them in becomes neccessary. Your correct in that there are physical limits to how much heat can be transferred to the water, how much coal can be in the firebox (thus some old books used to brag about a ship having a large grate area), how much energy a specific propellor can transmit to the water, how long the forced draught process can go before the fireboxes are clogged with ash, and so forth. Please cite that the Captain of a civilian steamer does not have the authority to call up an off duty crew(man). I have never heard of that before. Some trade Union law? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714/36 "2009-06-16T16:37:28Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > I’m sure that if they too had 97 years to think about it, they would have come up with that solution. Because??? It’s just common sense to lash stuff together on water for stability. Catamarans go way back and members of the crew should have been aware of them. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714/37 "2009-06-16T16:49:09Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Forced Draft consumes coal at a hugely accelerated rate. The coal may be burnt almost as fast as you can shovel it in. The “black gang” will get tired, and need replacing after a time, thus having the off duty watch on hand to rotate them in becomes neccessary. > > Your correct in that there are physical limits to how much heat can be transferred to the water, how much coal can be in the firebox (thus some old books used to brag about a ship having a large grate area), how much energy a specific propellor can transmit to the water, how long the forced draught process can go before the fireboxes are clogged with ash, and so forth. > > Please cite that the Captain of a civilian steamer does not have the authority to call up an off duty crew(man). I have never heard of that before. Some trade Union law? A hand stroked coal fired boiler could not have forced drafed fans on the boiler. And I believe it was only Navy ships with pressurized fire rooms. A captian has no authority in the engine room. In fact the captian has to ask the Chief Engineer for permission to leave port. On a ship where officers wear uniforms the captian and the Chief both have 4 stripes. My dad saw a Second Assiatant Engineer pick up a captian by the seat of the pants and throw him out of the engine room. the captian did not ask permission to come into the engineroom. I was on a ship once where the captian ordered 130 truns on the main engine. In the officers solon the Chief told the captian at that speed in the seas we were in it was going to damage the ship. The captian would not back down. The Chief went into the engineroom and put in the Day Orders book that the max turns was 110 turns unless the Chief approved an increase. Made the Captian mad but there was not a thing he could do. The deckies know how to manuver and load a ship, but do not have a clue of what goes on in the engine room. These rules came with Liciencing laws in most countrys. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714/38 "2009-06-16T18:01:27Z")
> [@Imasquare](#): > > There was a ship called The Californian visible about 3 miles in the distance. If they had been able to get the Californian to come to their aid some if not all of the deaths could have been avoided. > > . . . > > 1. Why couldn’t the Titanic have sent a couple of crew members over to The Californian in one of the small row boats they had? Since it was visible it shouldn’t be more than a few miles away should it? From [The Californian’s Story](http://home.earthlink.net/~dnitzer/Frameset.html) > [@](#): > > At 6:00 they received a wireless message from the Frankfurt, and then the Virginian, “Do you know the Titanic has struck a berg, and she is sinking?” Captain Lord started his engines and headed for the last known position of the Titanic. Within twenty-five minutes, Lord radioed to the Virginian that they were close enough see the rescue ship Carpathia taking on passengers from small boats. About this time, Stewart woke up Third Officer Groves with the announcement, “The Titanic has sunk, and the passengers are all in lifeboats in the water ahead of us.” At 6:50 am Third Officer Groves arrived on the bridge and noticed that the Carpathia and the lifeboats were due east - it had taken them less than an hour to arrive at the same latitude as the lifeboats. When they finally arrived alongside the Carpathia, the last of the survivors from the Titanic were just being taken aboard. So, even acknowledging a checked speed to avoid bergs, the _Californian_ took about an hour under power to reach the _Titanic_’s location. Without getting into the responsibility/culpability of Captain Lord, the answer to the question I have quoted is that a journey by lifeboat to get the attention of the _Californian_ would have been fruitless. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714/39 "2009-06-18T02:03:37Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > The Captian could not call the off-duty fireman watch, he would not have the athority. Even if this were the case on board the _Carpathia_ (which I doubt), the Captain need only have said to those off duty “Boys, a ship is sinking and we are needed to rescue survivors. Do you agree our honor demands we do our utmost? If so, head to the fireroom and offer any help your on-duty shipmates can use.” ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714/40 "2009-06-18T03:30:10Z")
I’ve been fascinated by the Titanic story ever since finding a book about it in my sixth grade school library back sometime around 1942 or so. One of the things I’ve read, and which does make some sense, is that they could have delayed the sinking if the watertight doors had not been closed. Closing these doors kept water from running immediately thru the ship, but it did cause the first five compartments (the ones affected by the gash in the hull) to fill, and then water ran over the top of each bulkhead astern in succession, flooding the ship from the bow. This forced the bow under water, and then the normal hull openings - portholes, hatches, etc., - let water rush with increasing volume into the hull, resulting in the rapid sinking. And modern research indicates that the angle the hull assumed as it sank probably caused a catastrophic breakup of the hull when a great deal of the ship was still above water. Had the watertight doors been left open, the water would have filled the entire hull from the bottom up, and it would have sunk on a relatively even keel. Estimates I’ve read state that it might have stayed afloat until the arrival of the Carpathia had this been the procedure. This approach would have caused other problems - loss of heat and light as the main engines and generators were flooded, forcing all the steerage passengers up higher into the ship (no bad thing, actually), but these effects would not have been anyway near as bad as what happened. However, it would have taken an extraordinarily self-assured, quick-thinking, skilled, and forceful sailor to have made that decision at that time and place. It is interesting to note that the entire area of the gash was no larger than the average refrigerator door. Unfortunately, it extended over the first five compartments, and the watertight bulkheads didn’t go all the way to the top of the hull. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-titanic-disaster/499714.md?page=3)