# The Tolkien General QnA thread. (May not be movie-related, but SPOILERS possible **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [December 19, 2003, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913 "2003-12-19T04:46:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Aankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@Aankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aankh)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/1 "2003-12-19T04:46:03Z")
I’m providing the questions. Some of them, anyway. NO SPOILER BOXES. You have been warned. Okay, ever since I read the trilogy six years ago, some things have been bothering me. Someone please help me out with them… 1. Tolkien provides the alphabet and grammatical constructions for the various languages he created (Quenya, Sindarin, Tengwar etc). Now, I know that there are many Tolkienistas who’re supposed to be fluent in these languages, but what thoroughly bewilders me is, where do you get the _vocabulary_? Tolkien does use odd words here and there in his books, but unless your daily life involves elves and war cries, I don’t see how you’d manage. 2. The Three Rings of the Elves were supposed to be independent of the power of Sauron. I believe Galadriel used Nenya to maintain Lothlorien, but what did Gandalf and Elrond use Narya and ---
**Author:** ![Aankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@Aankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aankh)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/2 "2003-12-19T04:50:58Z")
Gah. Stupid browser. Continued below… 1. The Three Rings of the Elves were supposed to be independent of the power of Sauron. I believe Galadriel used Nenya to maintain Lothlorien, but what did Gandalf and Elrond use Narya and Vilya for? 2. This is a stupid question. Was Sauron _destroyed_ at the end of the War of the Rings? Or was he rendered powerless, kind of like Melkor after the War of Wrath? 3. Melkor has been banished into the Void, yes? Can he return? 4. Elves and Men are the Children of Illuvatar. Where did the Dwarves pop up from? More questions as I think them up. Thank you kindly for your answers. _curtsies prettily_ ---
**Author:** ![emekthian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecae2f/32.png) [@emekthian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emekthian)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/3 "2003-12-19T05:23:33Z")
Disclaimer: I’m not entirely certian about all of these points, and its been a while since I’ve read The Silmarillion. > [@](#): > > 1. Tolkien provides the alphabet and grammatical constructions for the various languages he created (Quenya, Sindarin, Tengwar etc). Now, I know that there are many Tolkienistas who’re supposed to be fluent in these languages, but what thoroughly bewilders me is, where do you get the vocabulary? First of all, “tengwar” isn’t a language, but the term for the writing system used to write some of the languages. In one of the appendices of The Silmarillion (it’s a collection of Tolkien’s notes about the history of middle earth long before the events of LOTR, edited and published by Tolkien’s son after his death), there is a list of (I think) Quenya roots. There are also other published writings by Tolkein about Middle Earth that have information on the Elvish languages, including The History of Middle Earth series. Also, you really can’t be “fluent” in any Elvish language (except Quenya, and that’s debateable), because we don’t have access to many of the vocabulary and grammar terms Tolkien made up (if he even made them up at all). > [@](#): > > 1. Melkor has been banished into the Void, yes? Can he return? In The Silmarillion, it is stated that at the end of time, Melkor will return, and there will be some kind of major battle between the forces of good and evil. > [@](#): > > Elves and Men are the Children of Illuvatar. Where did the Dwarves pop up from? The Dwarves were created by the Vala Aure (a Vala is a kind of angelic spirit. They were sent into Middle Earth at it’s creation by the one God Ea). Again, this is from the Silmarillion. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/4 "2003-12-19T05:35:35Z")
Adding to the answer to Q1 – there are extensive Elvish vocabularies (addressing both Quenya and Sindarin, and also the no-longer-extant tongues like Telerin and Ossiriandic) in several volumes of HOME. Plus, a great deal of Elvish is coined from common roots using established formulae, so not having the Sindarin for “telephone” is not a problem – it can be coined from _palan-_ plus whatever “to hear” is (I don’t recall offhand) with the “object” ending. Sauron is an evil Maia – and as such is probably not subject to destruction per se. But he was disembodied and, since he had invested much of his power in the Ring, divested of most of his power. Probably the easiest way to express it would be to do an analogy to Christian thought (remember that Tolkien was a devout Catholic) and suggest, “Suppose a (fallen) archangel were to take human form. If he were killed, what would happen to him?” I’ve forgotten whether it is Sauron or Saruman whose destruction in the book results in a “wisp like smoke that moves toward the West” – but the results would be that the Maia in question appears before Manwe and Mandos – and I guarantee that they are going to not be pleased! ---
**Author:** ![Aankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@Aankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aankh)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/5 "2003-12-19T05:43:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\* I’ve forgotten whether it is Sauron or Saruman whose destruction in the book results in a “wisp like smoke that moves toward the West” \*\* IIRC, that would be Saruman as he went West with Wormtongue towards the Shire. I may be wrong, though. > [@](#): > > but the results would be that the Maia in question appears before Manwe and Mandos – and I guarantee that they are going to not be pleased! Could a Maia actually appear in the Halls of Mandos? I thought that was reserved only for the spirits of Elves and Men? ---
**Author:** ![DLC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@DLC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DLC)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/6 "2003-12-19T05:53:02Z")
Maia were lesser angels and as such were not held by the same rules that others were. They could appear in those halls for judgement… but it was not to pass on to the afterlife of men, the fate of whom only Eru was truly aware of. Even Manwe was said to only guess at their fates. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/7 "2003-12-19T06:26:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*I’ve forgotten whether it is Sauron or Saruman whose destruction in the book results in a “wisp like smoke that moves toward the West” – but the results would be that the Maia in question appears before Manwe and Mandos – and I guarantee that they are going to not be pleased! \*\* Both of them fade out in this fashion, at least in a sense. Upon the destruction of the Ring, a great shadow arises from Barad-Dur, and looms toward the Armies of the Free Peoples, but then is blown away by a wind from the west. When Saruman is slain by Grima, his body rots away within seconds, but first, a wisp of smoke in a vague wizard-shaped form, rises from the remains, seems to turn toward the west, and is blown away into nothingness by a wind from the west. ---
**Author:** ![Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambi_Hassenpfeffer)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/8 "2003-12-19T08:51:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by aasna \* > **2. The Three Rings of the Elves were supposed to be independent of the power of Sauron. I believe Galadriel used Nenya to maintain Lothlorien, but what did Gandalf and Elrond use Narya and Vilya for?** Nenya was used to maintain Lothlórien; Vilya was used to maintain Imladris. Narya, the ring of fire, was (IIRC) used to kindle the fire in the hearts of men and to help them fight the will of Sauron. It was given to Gandalf by Círdan, the shipwright of the Grey Havens, when he arrived in Middle Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambi_Hassenpfeffer)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/9 "2003-12-19T08:53:54Z")
And God, wasn’t that an orgy of the passive tense? My freshman English teacher would’ve had my head for that. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/10 "2003-12-19T10:41:44Z")
Not to mention confusing “tense” with “voice”. OTOH your answer about the Three Rings was spot on 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/11 "2003-12-19T12:11:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > Plus, a great deal of Elvish is coined from common roots using established formulae, so not having the Sindarin for “telephone” is not a problem – it can be coined from _palan-_ plus whatever “to hear” is (I don’t recall offhand) with the “object” ending. I almost hate to ask, but is _palantír_ the Elvish word for _television_?? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/12 "2003-12-19T12:43:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Elves and Men are the Children of Illuvatar. Where did the Dwarves pop up from? A more detailed account - One of the Vala (whose name I forgot, but who’s roughly analogous to Vulcan) decided he needed some help at his forge - and this was before either men or elves awoke in the world. He forged from the earth itself, the 7 Fathers of the Dwarves. And then Eru (God) showed up and said, “what the hell do you think you’re doing!?” ``` Well, the Vala was kind of abashed, and said he hadn't meant anything by it (pride, etc.), but just wanted to create something nice. And Eru agreed that the Dwarves were pretty cool, so he added them to creation. But he said that they'd have to come after the Elves and Men, so the Vala secreted them away in the earth (and presumably made a Dwarven bride or three) to await the time when they could come awake. ``` > [@](#): > > Could a Maia actually appear in the Halls of Mandos? I thought that was reserved only for the spirits of Elves and Men? I don’t think that Men go there at all. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/13 "2003-12-19T14:05:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > \*\* I don’t think that Men go there at all. \*\* Mortals go to Mandos, but tarry there only briefly, before heading out into parts unknown. That is the gift of Eru to Man, to not be bound to the fate of the world. Great questions and answers so far! I hope to add to the discussion later, when I can. Must work, xmas shop, and see ROTK again tonight! Aure Entuluva! ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/14 "2003-12-19T14:54:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > \*\*A more detailed account - > One of the Vala (whose name I forgot, but who’s roughly analogous to Vulcan) \ \*\* Aule. There should be an umlaut over the e. Just so I can get there before QtM! ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/15 "2003-12-19T14:56:35Z")
PS - Not because he wanted help, but because he wanted to make some people to love and teach. If I’d’a thunk before I’d posted, I wouldn’ta had to post twice :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Aankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@Aankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aankh)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/16 "2003-12-19T15:15:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > **A more detailed account - \** Fascinating! So does that mean that the dwarves are a secondary race. I mean, since only Elves and Men get to keep the honorific of _Children of Illuvatar_, where does that leave the dwarves? How do they fit into the grand scheme of things. For instance, as posters in this thread have mentioned, Elves and Men both go to the Halls of Mandos after their death (and then to other ‘places’ after that). What happens to the dwarves? Which brings me to the question, did Tolkien’s universe contain concepts that parallel heaven and hell? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Bambi Hassenpfeffer_ > **Narya, the ring of fire, was (IIRC) used to kindle the fire in the hearts of men and to help them fight the will of Sauron.** That’s interesting. I had assumed a more literal meaning: fire as in ‘flame’. That’s why I thought Gandalf’s showdown with the Balrog was very apposite…a creature of fire and shadow versus the one who holds the Ring of Fire. And talking of Gandalf’s confrontation with the Balrog, well, when he returns afterwards, that is, when he says he was reborn, he comes back as Gandalf the White. How precisely have his powers and abilities increased now? He’s supposed to have become the most powerful of the five (was it five?) Maiar ‘wizards’ who came to Middle Earth, but what does this mean? What is he capable of now that he was not before? Tolkien didn’t expand on this much in the trilogy IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/17 "2003-12-19T16:05:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by aasna \* > \*\*So does that mean that the dwarves are a secondary race. I mean, since only Elves and Men get to keep the honorific of _Children of Illuvatar_, where does that leave the dwarves? How do they fit into the grand scheme of things. For instance, as posters in this thread have mentioned, Elves and Men both go to the Halls of Mandos after their death (and then to other ‘places’ after that). What happens to the dwarves? Paraphrasing greatly (until QtM comes back), Eru Iluvatar updated his grand scheme to include dwarves. IIRC, at the end of the Hobbit when Thorin Oakenshield is dying, he says he’s going to the Halls of Waiting to join his fathers. So dwarves believed they went to the Hall after death, apparently. > [@](#): > > Which brings me to the question, did Tolkien’s universe contain concepts that parallel heaven and hell? Tolkien plays his own cards close to the vest. The only afterlife he discusses is the one that awaits the elves – the Halls of Mandos. I don’t think he’s ever discussed what becomes of an evil elf (if there is such a thing – presumably they wait in the Halls of Waiting for an extremely long time. Feanor may still be there. 🙂 None of his characters knows what becomes of the spirits of Men. > [@](#): > > And talking of Gandalf’s confrontation with the Balrog, well, when he returns afterwards, that is, when he says he was reborn, he comes back as Gandalf the White. How precisely have his powers and abilities increased now? He’s supposed to have become the most powerful of the five (was it five?) Maiar ‘wizards’ who came to Middle Earth, but what does this mean? What is he capable of now that he was not before? Tolkien didn’t expand on this much in the trilogy IIRC. \*\* Gandalf is more blatantly “magical” after his return. Gandalf the Grey (speaking strictly from the books) limits his magic to starting fires, and speaking “spells of closing” trying to keep a door closed in Moria. (Plus breaking the bridge of Khazad-dum). Gandalf the White can deflect Legolas’ arrows in mid-air, break Saruman’s staff from long distance, and shoot beams of light from his hand that scare away Nazgul. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/18 "2003-12-19T17:13:47Z")
It’s not so much that Gandalf is more powerful as the White, as that he’s allowed to use more of his power, and more directly. And his final confrontation with Saruman was more a matter of authority than power. It was never his role to directly confront the evil things of the world, but to inspire others to do so. But the situation’s starting to become desparate at that point, so he’s given leave to act more directly. The Dwarves are the adopted children of Illuvatar. When Aulë made them, they were nothing more than clever automata or robots, but when he repented his pride, Illuvatar instilled them with the Secret Fire (approximately analogous to the Holy Spirit), thereby making them “real”, and now that they exist, He loves them as all His children. There are definitely evil elves, or at least elves who do evil. As I recall, the fellow who forged Gurthang (Turin’s sword) was guilty of kidnapping, rape, incest, murder, and suicide, and there’s no indication that he ever repented. And every High-Elf in Middle Earth is a kinslayer or decendant of a kinslayer, save for Galadriel (and she could well be considered an accomplice), but most of them have repented and been forgiven. They do indeed go to the Halls along with everyone else, though they might have to serve some sort of pennance, and it might be longer before they’re reborn (it’s implied that Feanor won’t be reborn until the End). Outside of the bounds of Middle Earth, by the way, you might also read “Leaf by Niggle”, a short story by Tolkien, for some of his views of the afterlife. Wait, no, never mind that, it’s obviously not about the afterlife, since that would be an allegory, and Tolkien cordially disliked allegory in all its forms. But it’s a story which just happens to coincidentally bear a striking resemblence to a story about the afterlife. ---
**Author:** ![Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambi_Hassenpfeffer)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2003, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/19 "2003-12-19T18:26:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by aasna \ ***That’s interesting. I had assumed a more literal meaning: fire as in ‘flame’. That’s why I thought Gandalf’s showdown with the Balrog was very apposite…a creature of fire and shadow versus the one who holds the Ring of Fire.** Now that I’m near my _Silmarillion_, a quote. This is Círdan giving Gandalf Narya when he arrived on the shores of the Grey Havens. > [@](#): > > ‘Take now this Ring,’ he said; ‘for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. **For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill.** But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores, guarding the Havens until the last ship sails. Then I shall await thee.’ The use of “fire” or “flame” like this makes more sense if you know that Tolkien’s phrase for the soul is the “Secret Fire.” Eru Ilúvatar kindled this flame in the hearts of his children, the Eldar and the Men; yet by the Third Age, the fire in Men was dwindling. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Malacandra_ > **Not to mention confusing “tense” with “voice”.** Quiet, you! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![c\_carol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@c\_carol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/c_carol)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/20 "2003-12-20T02:16:38Z")
> [@](#): > > I almost hate to ask, but is palantír the Elvish word for television?? Matter of fact, it pretty much is. The root meaning is something like “far-seeing”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913.md?page=2)