# The Tolkien General QnA thread. (May not be movie-related, but SPOILERS possible **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [December 19, 2003, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913 "2003-12-19T04:46:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/181 "2004-01-10T17:51:54Z")
Well, Guin, jayjay’s extrapolating a bit. No one (elves, Men, or Tolkien) knows what happens to the souls of men after they die. But whatever happened to Aragorn’s happened to Arwen’s too – which was the whole point of the choice she made. Book and movie differ a bit as to when and how Arwen made her choice. The conversation in the book (Appendix A “A Part of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen”) on Aragorn’s death bed implies that Aragorn thinks that she still has the option to go to the Undying Lands with the elves; but she replies that her decision has been made, and there is no ship that will bear her hence. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/182 "2004-01-10T19:28:52Z")
Not really extrapolating at all…I basically said what you said, only different. After a short time in the Halls of Mandos, the spirits of Men [go beyond Arda](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/g/giftofmen.html). After that, not even the Valar know what happens to them. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/183 "2004-01-10T21:23:06Z")
Call me corny, I just wanted them to spend eternity together-I mean, all that strife and fighting and giving up all that for only six years together? Phshah! BTW, was “second breakfast” mentioned in the book? (I’m in “Flotsam and Jetsam” right now) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/184 "2004-01-10T21:29:37Z")
Six years?! You are aware that Aragorn lived another 120 years after he became king, right? I don’t remember if Second Breakfast was in the books, actually. It’s been a while since I actually read them. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/185 "2004-01-10T21:29:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Call me corny, I just wanted them to spend eternity together-I mean, all that strife and fighting and giving up all that for only six years together? ??? They were married about 120 years before Aragorn died. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/186 "2004-01-10T21:32:02Z")
Hmmm…the apparent attitude in the first part of my last post could definitely use a titch of “tone-down”. Sorry, **Guin** , I still haven’t seen RotK, so I don’t know HOW long Jackson has them living after the coronation. Which means, if you’re just reading the trilogy, you may very well NOT be aware that Aragorn and Arwen lived for 120 years afterward. Sorry. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/187 "2004-01-10T21:37:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jayjay \* > \*\* I still haven’t seen RotK \*\* :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: gwaah? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/188 "2004-01-10T21:49:51Z")
Heh. I didn’t see TTT until it came out on DVD. I’m not much of a go-to-the-movies person, even for LotR. I DID see Fellowship in the theater, but before that the last movie I saw on the big screen was the first Jurassic Park. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/189 "2004-01-10T22:01:49Z")
> [@](#): > > BTW, was “second breakfast” mentioned in the book? I seem to remember a list such as Pippin spouted (afternoon tea, lunch, dinner, supper, etc) in The Hobbit, but I’ve lent my copy to a niece, and I can’t seem to find an online reference that confirms this. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/190 "2004-01-10T22:20:46Z")
Here you, go, from the Hobbit: > [@](#): > > To the end of his days Bilbo could never remember how he found himself outside, without a hat, a walking stick or any money, or anything that he usually took when he went out; leaving his **second breakfast** half-finished and quite unwashed-up, pushing his keys into Gandalf’s hands, and running as fast as his furry feet could carry him down the lane, past the great Mill, across The Water, and then on for a mile or more. And from the FotR prologue, _Concerning Hobbits_And laugh they did and eat and drink, often and heartily, being fond of simple jests at all times, **and of six meals a day (when they could get them)**. [/quote] I’d still swear there was a longer list of meal-names, much as Pippin named them, somewhere in the books. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/191 "2004-01-11T02:16:54Z")
All right, okay, for some reason, I thought I read in the tale of A&A, it was six years. Never mind. :o :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Aankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@Aankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aankh)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/192 "2004-01-11T04:14:46Z")
In the _Fellowship of the Ring_ (the book), Gandalf threatened to turn Sam into a frog or a toad or…some icky little animal, anyway. I never could decide if he was kidding around or serious there. What do the gurus think? Did he have the ability? I know this is a very nitpicky question…I just _like_ Gandalf! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/193 "2004-01-11T04:16:10Z")
I think that was just an attempt to scare Sam. This was right after he got caught listening at windows, right? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/194 "2004-01-11T04:23:42Z")
Actually, in the books and the film, it was Sam that was supposing Gandalf could turn him into something. Gandalf – or anyone else – never made such a claim. > [@](#): > > Mr. Frodo, sir!" cried Sam, quaking. “Don’t let him hurt me, sir! Don’t let him turn me into anything unnatural! My old dad would take on so.” ---
**Author:** ![Aankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@Aankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aankh)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/195 "2004-01-11T04:24:22Z")
Let me check. … Not quite. At the point you mention, Frodo tells Sam that he better shut up else Gandalf will turn him into a spotted toad and fill the garden with grass-snakes. Just a bit after, in the chapter ‘Three is Company’, there is this: > [@](#): > > He (Gandalf) looked at Frodo and smiled. ‘Very well’, he said. ‘I think that will do - but it must not be any later. I am getting very anxious. In the meanwhile, do take care, and don’t let out any hint of where you are going! And see that Sam Gamgee does not talk. If he does, I really shall turn him into a toad.’ He might be joking, and then again, he might be only half-joking. What say? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/196 "2004-01-11T04:32:42Z")
Joking. Gandalf is quite a bit more important and powerful than he lets on through most of LotR, but he’s definitely not one to go around transforming good Hobbits into amphibians willy-nilly. ---
**Author:** ![Aankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@Aankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aankh)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/197 "2004-01-11T04:39:49Z")
Oh he wouldn’t go about zapping them, true, but if he wanted to, _could_ he? Does he have the ability? That’s what I wanna know. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/198 "2004-01-11T04:59:44Z")
Not sure about hobbit transmogrification, but he’s a dab hand at placing blessings on beer. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/199 "2004-01-11T05:36:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by aankh \* > Not quite. At the point you mention, Frodo tells Sam that he better shut up else Gandalf will turn him into a spotted toad etcetc This sequence isn’t in the book or the JP film (I just now reviewed both). Perhaps in the Bakshi Apocrypha…? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/200 "2004-01-11T06:03:30Z")
Oh, crap – I read only the first part of your post, and missed the ref to the later chapter of the book. Apologies, you’re quite right. I think Gandalf was joking – If he could turn hobbits into toads, he certainly would have given the Balrog in Khazad Dum the same treatment. No? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913.md?page=11)