# The Tolkien General QnA thread. (May not be movie-related, but SPOILERS possible **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [December 19, 2003, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913 "2003-12-19T04:46:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/201 "2004-01-11T17:12:42Z")
I am a dumbass-I read it to say six _years_ rather than “six-_score_”! D’oh! I think he’s just jaggin’ with Sam. It’s pretty obvious. After all, he’s constantly threatening Pippin and calling him a “fool of a Took!” But then Pippin is a big screw-up! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/202 "2004-01-11T19:19:27Z")
I am rereading _The Silmarillion_ due to this thread, and I was wondering: did Galadriel participate in the Kinslaying at Alqualonde? She was Finarfin’s daughter, but he didn’t leave Aman. I know she was with the group that went over the Helcaraxe, not with Feanor’s host, but it sounds like almost all the Noldor had a hand in the battle. Is it safe to assume she was with Fingon, since the book says that her brothers stood with Fingon? Of Fingon at this battle, it says “the vanguard of the Noldor were succored by Fingon with the foremost of the host of Fingolfin, who coming up found a battle joined and their own kin falling and rushed in before they knew rightly the cause of the quarrel…” The referent isn’t clear to me; did both Fingolfin and Fingon rush into this battle, or was that just Fingolfin’s group, and Fingon’s only “gave succor to the vanguard”? What does that mean, anywy? So did Galadriel fight that day and kill other Elves? Or is this not known? Certainly she seemed to be suffering from the Curse of the Noldor in the LotR. Were only Noldor who participated in the Kinslaying subject to the curse? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/203 "2004-01-11T19:42:04Z")
Actually, Finarfin did start the journey, but his group didn’t participate in the Kinslaying (I think they got to Alqualondë after it was over). The Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos convinced him to turn back with most of his group, and the Valar welcomed him back to the Undying Lands and made him King of the Noldor in Aman. Given that Finarfin’s children were traveling with him, I don’t think Galadriel had a part in the Kinslaying. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/204 "2004-01-11T19:44:35Z")
Hmmm…I’m probably wrong about Finarfin’s children traveling with him, then. I don’t have the Sil in front of me. I think it was the general rebellion against the express orders of the Valar that precipitated the Doom of Mandos, not the Kinslaying by itself. The Doom intertwined with Fëanor’s Oath caused the Curse of the Noldor and the tragic events of the First Age in Beleriand. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/205 "2004-01-11T20:41:41Z")
Guinastasia, you spoke of wanting Arwen and Aragorn to have eternity together. That is in fact the point of her choice - to endure the Doom of Men along with Aragorn; they will go they know not where but they will go together. “We are not bound forever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory” were Aragorn’s dying words. The tragedy, of course, is that Elrond and his daughter are forever separated. Had she not embraced the Doom of Men then even if she or Elrond were killed they would go to Mandos and return in physical form sooner or later. As things actually turn out, when Elrond quits Middle-Earth he has seen Arwen for the last time in that world or any other. You can understand why he was reluctant to give her up for any mortal less than the King of Gondor and Arnor reunited. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/206 "2004-01-11T21:14:21Z")
Galadriel fought against other Noldor to defend her mother’s kin at Alqualondë, as did a number of other Noldor. Even so, she was caught up in the Doom of the Noldor. It says so in UT, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/207 "2004-01-11T21:39:56Z")
**Malacandra** , very true. But would she have been happy going to Mandos? Either way, she had to give up something-her immortality, or her love for Aragorn. BTW, did it ever say how old Legolas was? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/208 "2004-01-11T22:10:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > BTW, did it ever say how old Legolas was? Old Legolas was fine, the last he was mentioned, when he and Gimli went Oversea together. 😉 Seriously, Legolas’s grandfather Oropher was a Sindarin Elf of Doriath who became king of the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood at the beginning of the Second Age, and led an army to the great battle that ended the Second Age, where he and the greater share of his army were slain. His son, Thranduil, was king of the Elves of Mirkwood for the entire Third Age. And Legolas was Thranduil’s son – which gives one a very broad range of possible ages. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/209 "2004-01-11T22:22:27Z")
I don’t find a documented date of Legolas birth, there’s clues that his memory extends back quite a way (perhaps to the second age? Or earlier?). For example, regarding Ents, Legolas remarks, “…even among us they are only a memory. If I were to meet one still walking in this world, then indeed I should feel young again.” Or regarding the barrows before Edoras, “Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home since [the founding of Rohan], and but a little while does that seem to us.” It sounds like this guy aint no spring chicken. ---
**Author:** ![Bob55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Bob55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob55)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/210 "2004-01-11T23:03:24Z")
I have a **Gandalf** question: As a fan of D&D games like Baldur’s Gate I was hoping for a little more magic from him - he seems to use a Fire Protection spell against that beast in Moria, but other than that we don’t see much. Where’s the Magic Missle? Where’s the raise dead? No Stinking Cloud? Was he of a certain class of magic that limited him? I know someone posted elsewhere that Gandalf was under orders from another mage (the guy who owns the eagles), so maybe he was restricted in what he could use? Also, he seems to just charge right into battles in his robe - does he cast some sort of Impenetrability spells on them or just fight with no protection against swords/arrows? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/211 "2004-01-11T23:17:45Z")
Regarding Legolas: No definitive date for his origin exists, but in Book of Lost Tales an elf named Legolas who was of the Folk of the Tree appears in Gondolin, and is one of the party who escaped the fall of Gondolin with Tuor and Idril and Ëarendil. [http://www.annalsofarda.dk/annals-of-arda/Elves-index-tables/Elves/Legolas.htm](http://www.annalsofarda.dk/annals-of-arda/Elves-index-tables/Elves/Legolas.htm) Of course, the early writings can’t necessarily be considered Canon. But Gondolin was reknown for the greatest mixing of both Noldorin and Sindarin elves. It’s certainly possible that elves who had been subject to Thranduil before the rising of the Moon could have thrown their lot in with Turgon. At any rate, he’s no spring chicken. And **Bob55**. You’re kidding, right? ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2004, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/212 "2004-01-12T04:51:47Z")
**jayjay** : You’re right about Finarfin turning back after the Kinslaying; how did I miss that? But it seems that the Doom of Mandos was precipitated by the Kinslaying and directly addresses the repercussions of that event in the curse. The whole bit about them not being reincarnated and sitting in the Halls of Mandos until the end of time was rough. Does that apply even to folk like Galadriel, who didn’t participate? If she were killed, would she have had to sit next to Feanor in the Valar’s Waiting Room forever? What about Noldor born after the Kinslaying, like Gil-Galad, who died? Does this curse apply to them too? **Qadgop** : Thanks for the info on Galadriel. I’m relieved to hear that she did the right thing at Alqualonde. I really want to get the HOME books you guys are talking about. I saw a boxed set of the first 5 volumes on Amazon. Are those the ones I should get? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2004, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/213 "2004-01-12T05:05:42Z")
Why does anything Elven burn or hurt Gollum/Smeagol? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/214 "2004-01-12T15:04:00Z")
Gollum has been tainted by Sauron’s evil through the ring. Elven items, particularly those crafted by the Noldor (and especially those crafted by elves from Valinor) possess a virtue that makes them painful to those of evil natures. Think of the items as possessing a “holy water” like aura. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/215 "2004-01-12T23:08:50Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Not really extrapolating at all…I basically said what you said, only different. After a short time in the Halls of Mandos, the spirits of Men [go beyond Arda](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/g/giftofmen.html). After that, not even the Valar know what happens to them. It was the stopover in the Halls of Mandos that I had a quibble with – I didn’t think even that much was known. But I’m inclined to accept the Encylopedia of Arda as authoritative, so I bow to your superior knowledge. But I’m gonna check the Silmarillion when I get home. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2004, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/216 "2004-01-12T23:38:20Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Call me corny, I just wanted them to spend eternity together… Which is exactly what happened, and what they would have lost if Arwen had gotten aboard one of those boats. If you don’t read all the appendices, be sure to read at least Appendix A, Part II, section (v). It’s where most of the information about Aragorn and Arwen’s relationship is. For some background background on her choice and on Aragorn’s relationship to Elrond, see App. A, I(i). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2004, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/217 "2004-01-13T04:33:22Z")
Okay, the Dead Marshes, what are the “bodies” there? Just corpses? Or are they spirits? Where are they from? WHat’s the deal here? (I don’t know WHAT I’m going to do when I’m done with this book-except check out more Tolkien!) ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2004, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/218 "2004-01-13T04:42:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Okay, the Dead Marshes, what are the “bodies” there? Just corpses? Or are they spirits? Where are they from? WHat’s the deal here? They’re corpses from the war at the end of the Second Age, as seen in the prologue of the LotR:FotR movie. There’s some speculation that the bodies were infested by evil spirits ala the Barrow Downs, but I haven’t seen anything definitive. Someone with more HOME lore will probably be along shortly with more detail. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2004, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/219 "2004-01-13T17:47:10Z")
**Dead Marshes:** The “corpses” are from the soldiers who fought in the war between Sauron and the Last Alliance (the one in which Isildur cut the ring from Sauron’s finger). But they corpses are not really there–they’re just an illusion. Gollum notes this in the book somewhat forlornly, since he’s VERY hungry … **Galadriel/Kinslaying:** Did she actually _fight?_ I thought she spoke some rash words and encouraged people to go to M-E to reclaim the Silmarils and leave the Valar behind, but I didn’t think she actually picked up a sword; esp. since, aside from Eowyn and that one Numenorean queen, I thought women in Tolkien’s world _never_ really fought, save with magic (like Melian’s girdle, Luthien’s songs, or Galadriel’s ring/casting down Dol Guldur at the end of the War of the Ring). Fighting was Guy Stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/220 "2004-01-13T18:48:08Z")
I seem to recall this being asked in a previous thread, but I can’t remember the answer. How did the One Ring get back to Middle Earth when Sauron was caught up in the downfall of Numenor? Without a body, he presumably could not have brought it there himself. Or did he perhaps hide it somehow in Middle Earth when he was taken captive by Ar-Pharazon? (It would seem unlikely that he wouldn’t have taken it with him.) I just re-read the appendices of RotK for perhaps the sixth time and I don’t recall this being addressed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913.md?page=12)