# The Tolkien General QnA thread. (May not be movie-related, but SPOILERS possible **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [December 19, 2003, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913 "2003-12-19T04:46:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Fern\_Forest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/71c47a/32.png) [@Fern\_Forest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fern_Forest)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/261 "2004-01-18T06:50:23Z")
I liked The Encyclopedia of Arda’s entry on [Balrogs](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/b/balrogs.html). Now I lean to they don’t. Shame too because I love Jackson’s Balrog. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Batman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/22d042/32.png) [@The\_Batman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Batman)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/262 "2004-01-18T06:54:29Z")
If the servants of Melkor don’t have the knowledge of flight then how do the fell steeds of the nazgul get and stay up there? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/263 "2004-01-18T07:05:20Z")
> [@Tijuana\_Golds](#): > > If the servants of Melkor don’t have the knowledge of flight then how do the fell steeds of the nazgul get and stay up there? They don’t. It’s done with mirrors. ---
**Author:** ![AtomicBanana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@AtomicBanana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicBanana)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/264 "2004-01-18T08:58:10Z")
Regarding Aragorn’s power as a healer, did he have any special innate power to do it, or was it just that he knew his medicinal herbs (or, just one herb, actually)? In the book (and movies) his chief healing method seems to be ‘slather some kingsfoil on it.’ Stabbed by a Nazgul? Kingsfoil! Poisoned dart? Kingsfoil! Overwhelmed by the dark power of the Witch-King? Kingsfoil! It’s the cure for what ails ya, now available in convenient time release capsules… Put me in the ‘Balrogs have wings’ camp too. It says so, dammit. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/265 "2004-01-18T13:09:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Well, there’s also the matter that at least twice, balrogs have fallen to their deaths (the one Gandalf fought, and the one that Glorfindel fought). And there are implications in the Lost Tales that none of Melko’s original servants had the power of flight (he imprisoned and tortured the Lord of the Eagles to try to get him to divulge the secret). So if balrogs can’t fly, then what are the wings for? That’s easy: Because the Creator (Eru?) wanted 'em to have them. Y’can’t look for evolutionary purpose in a created world. Especially a world where the creator clearly has a sense of whimsey. Look at Oliphaunts: They look like elephants…but they’re, what? 2 or 3 times as big. Square-Cube law sez “Um. Dood, no way. They’d collapse”, Eru replies “Tough noogies, physics. I want 'em.” and Square-Cube law slinks away. Ditto with the Eagles: increasing the size of an eagle 10-fold (it can carry Gandalf, a very large man, remember) at least, it shouldn’t be able to fly. But it does. In this world, the creationists win. That said, some reasons that Eru might have given them wings other than esthetics? How 'bout warmth? Caves stay a pretty constant temperature until you start getting waaaaay down deep and then they still stay a (hotter) consistant temperature. The wings could be used as blankets at night or in the upper reaches of the caves where it’s cooler. How 'bout as a fighting tool? Getting lashed at by two 50-foot wings while a pissed off balrog is also trying to whip you with a flaming scourge in one hand and skewer you with a sword in the other would be pretty effective. In war-game turns, it gives the balrog four attacks per round whereas a human would only have one (two if he can use two swords at once) Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/266 "2004-01-18T15:03:18Z")
> [@AtomicBanana](#): > > Regarding Aragorn’s power as a healer, did he have any special innate power to do it, or was it just that he knew his medicinal herbs (or, just one herb, actually)? Just my WAG: His healing powers were a sign that he was the true king, of the blood of Ëarendil. Probably via the line of Luthien. Elrond was better than Aragorn at it as he was fewer generations removed from Luthien (along with all their other ancestors!) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/267 "2004-01-18T20:16:34Z")
Okay, in the movie-what were those things the orcs were creating out of the mud, that attacked the Fellowship in Moria? Also, orcs were originally elves? What’s the story on that? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/268 "2004-01-18T20:21:29Z")
Durin’s Bane wasn’t killed in the original fall into the chasm, but once they reach the top of the Endless Stair, Gandalf does kill it by “throwing it down”. Of course, in both this case and in Glorfindel’s, the fall only occurs after a long fight. So one can also argue that both 'rogs were injured to the point that they couldn’t fly any more, even though they normally might be able to. So even that’s still debateable. Personally, I think that they did have wings, but wings which were literally composed of shadow. Shadow is part of their essence, so it’s not unreasonable to suppose that part of their bodies might be made of it. Now, of course, wings of shadow are useless for enabling a physical creature to fly, but I’m as yet undecided as to whether an unclad Balrog would be able to fly using those wings. As for Aragorn’s healing, it really isn’t made clear. Athelas gives “in the kings hands lying, life to the dying”, but it’s not clear whether that implies some special virtue to the kingship or decent from Luthien, or if it just means that Aragorn (who happens to be the King who needs identifying) happens to know how to use the herb effectively. Certainly, athelas has at least some virtue of its own, since Aragorn can’t heal without it, and if nothing else, it’s good for headaches, no matter who uses it. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/269 "2004-01-18T20:31:29Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Personally, I think that they did have wings, but wings which were literally composed of shadow. Shadow is part of their essence, so it’s not unreasonable to suppose that part of their bodies might be made of it. Now, of course, wings of shadow are useless for enabling a physical creature to fly, but I’m as yet undecided as to whether an unclad Balrog would be able to fly using those wings. I apologize in advance, but I misread the underscored word, and could only think, “What is the average airspeed of an unladen balrog?” 😃 > [@](#): > > As for Aragorn’s healing, it really isn’t made clear. Athelas gives “in the kings hands lying, life to the dying”, but it’s not clear whether that implies some special virtue to the kingship or decent from Luthien, or if it just means that Aragorn (who happens to be the King who needs identifying) happens to know how to use the herb effectively. Certainly, athelas has at least some virtue of its own, since Aragorn can’t heal without it, and if nothing else, it’s good for headaches, no matter who uses it. This, sir, is another of Tolkien’s borrowings from “real” lore – it’s a commonplace of medieval healing lore in the real world that the touch of an anointed king, along with other medical treatment, was efficacious for the curing of a couple of diseases, scrofula in particular. (That is, it was a necessary but not sufficient element of the regimen.) It is unclear whether this was vested in descent from the royal blood, a product of the solemn anointing at the coronation, or what, but it was in fact a standard element of their views. As late as the early 1700s Queen Anne was accustomed to lay hands on her suffering subjects for this purpose from time to time. (I’m curious as to what our resident M.D. and Tolkien expert, **Qadgop** , may have to say on this! :)) ---
**Author:** ![vandal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/858c86/32.png) [@vandal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vandal)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/270 "2004-01-18T20:38:51Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Okay, in the movie-what were those things the orcs were creating out of the mud, that attacked the Fellowship in Moria? > > Also, orcs were originally elves? What’s the story on that? The things coming out of the mud were called Uruk-hai. They never attacked the Fellowship in Moria, though. Orcs are creatures that Melkor made trying to “one up” Iluvatar’s elves, but he did not posess his level creative powers. He kinda messed up, and produced what we now know as an orc. Supposedly, they reproduce on thier own, although I have never seen or heard of a female orc. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2004, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/271 "2004-01-18T21:46:52Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Also, orcs were originally elves? What’s the story on that? Yes, as per the canon in The Silmarillion the orcs were created by tormenting and breeding captured elves, probably among the Avari. JRRT later had problems with this origin, but never really got around to clarifying it. But he loathed having devised a race of thinking creatures that seemed to be “unredeemable”. ---
**Author:** ![NoCoolUserName](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5fc32e/32.png) [@NoCoolUserName](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoCoolUserName)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/272 "2004-01-19T04:07:42Z")
Re: Aragorn as healer From Chapter XII–Flight to the Ford > [@](#): > > He sat on the ground, and taking the dagger-hilt laid it on his knees, and he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue. Now it could be just shamanism–this song thing–but we probably should give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was accomplishing something. From Chapter VIII–The Houses of Healing > [@](#): > > ‘Here I must put forth all such power and skill as is given to me,’ he said. ‘Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our race, and has the greater power.’ …and… > [@](#): > > Now Aragorn knelt beside Faramir, and held a hand upon his brow. And those that watched felt that some great struggle was going on. For Aragorn’s face grew grey with weariness; and ever and anon he called the name of Faramir, but each time more faintly to their hearing, as if Aragorn himself was removed from them, and walked afar in some dark vale, calling for one that was lost. …and finally, after _kingsfoil_ is brought… > [@](#): > > ‘It will serve,’ he said. ‘The worst is now over.’ So apparently he does have some healing power, since he was able to bring Faramir almost all the way back before the _athelas_ even showed up. Also, Ioreth says > [@](#): > > ’Who would have believed it?’…’The weed is better than I thought.’ So the fact that Aragorn was wielding it seems to have made it more potent that it was on its own. ---
**Author:** ![Aankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@Aankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aankh)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/273 "2005-03-28T08:56:48Z")
Tolkien often referred to his dragons as ‘worms’. I believe there were even different kinds of worms in his universe…ones that could breathe fire, ones that could not, and so on. So why did he give Grima the surname _Worm_tongue? Were the dragons supposed to be smooth-talking, conniving, lying cheats? And am I a complete loser for asking such piddling and pedantic questions? Seems like I am. Damn. ---
**Author:** ![Aankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@Aankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aankh)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/274 "2005-03-28T08:58:45Z")
Oops. :smack: Didn’t mean to resurrect a long dead thread. My apologies for any double-takes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913.md?page=13)