# The Tolkien General QnA thread. (May not be movie-related, but SPOILERS possible **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [December 19, 2003, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913 "2003-12-19T04:46:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/21 "2003-12-20T02:50:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by aasna \* > \*\*… > That’s interesting. I had assumed a more literal meaning: fire as in ‘flame’. That’s why I thought Gandalf’s showdown with the Balrog was very apposite…a creature of fire and shadow versus the one who holds the Ring of Fire. > > … \*\* Of course, Gandalf does have quite a bit of skill with regard to regular ol’ fire, too. Think of his fireworks, his use of the flaming pine cones to attack the Wargs in _The Hobbit_, his starting the fire in the snowstorm on Caradhas, and his igniting the trees on top of the hill during the wolf attack outside Moria. Also his skill with smoke rings. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/22 "2003-12-20T03:00:50Z")
**Chronos** , I believe the blacksmith in question is Eol, the Dark Elf, who kidnapped Turgon’s sister Aredhel and fathered Maeglin on her. He later appeared in Gondolin after Aredhel and Maeglin escaped Nan Elmoth and demanded his son. When he realized that Turgon would not let any who came to Gondolin leave (to keep the secret of the city safe), he attempted to kill Maeglin with a poisoned dart but instead killed Aredhel, who leapt in front of her son. The Gondolindrim then threw Eol over the walls of the crater to his death. Maeglin wasn’t a terribly nice person, either…blood will tell. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/23 "2003-12-20T03:10:28Z")
javelin, not dart. Duh. I’m still trying to figure out where the big pointy stick turned into a little pointy stick… ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/24 "2003-12-20T06:46:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by aasna \* > \*\*Fascinating! > > So does that mean that the dwarves are a secondary race. I mean, since only Elves and Men get to keep the honorific of _Children of Illuvatar_, where does that leave the dwarves? How do they fit into the grand scheme of things. For instance, as posters in this thread have mentioned, Elves and Men both go to the Halls of Mandos after their death (and then to other ‘places’ after that). What happens to the dwarves? > \*\* The Dwarves sit around after they die (I’m not sure where) and wait until the last battle. Then they will help Aule rebuild the world. And the biggest problem wasn’t that Aule was proud, he just wanted to be like Iluvatar (essentially his father). Without souls (or Secret Fire) the Dwarves would only move when Aule controlled them. He was surprised when Illuvatar told him this, and I don’t think he would have created them if he had known. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/25 "2003-12-20T19:24:42Z")
**Dwarves**. Most of the queries about about them have been pretty accurately answered already. Here’s a relatively concise summary of JRRT’s writing about the origins and nature of the dwarves: [http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/d/dwarves.html](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/d/dwarves.html) ---
**Author:** ![bughunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@bughunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bughunter)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/26 "2003-12-22T22:05:35Z")
As for the OP’s question about Queyna and Sindarin vocabulary, there are two that I have known about for a while now. The first is [The Lost Road](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345406850/002-1517399-2600845?v=glance), by Christopher Tolkein. Therein lies a section titled “The Etymologies” that brings together names and word roots from J.R.R. Tolkein’s notes. This is considered the bible of elven vocabulary now. The only other one I’ve even laid hands on is Ruth Noel’s [The Languages of Middle Earth](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0395291305/002-1517399-2600845?v=glance), also republished for use by RPGers (with permission) by ICE as the Middle Earth Adventure Guidebook II, now long out of print. I first found this as the latter, then went out and found a used copy of the former. Both were rendered obsolete when The Lost Road was published, but I didn’t know this at the time, and still find them fascinating. You can search on Amazon or the Web for other works by authors such as Jim Allan and Robert Forster that address Tolkein’s Middle Earth languages. (I’d do it, but something has rendered Amazon rather sluggish at the moment.) ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/27 "2003-12-22T22:30:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bughunter \* > **The only other one I’ve even laid hands on is Ruth Noel’s [The Languages of Middle Earth](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0395291305/002-1517399-2600845?v=glance)** Just to avoid any unpleasant experiences for anyone who gets ahold of _Noel’s_ book, many linguistically-knowledgable Tolkein fans are quite dismissive of this work. I’m by no means qualified to judge myself, but citing it can invite scorn and derision from some quarters. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/28 "2003-12-23T01:30:10Z")
What were the dwarves doing during the RoTK war? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/29 "2003-12-23T01:33:38Z")
[Here’s](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=230898) a thread on that. Basically, they were fighting Sauron’s northern army at Erebor and Dale. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/30 "2003-12-23T01:33:54Z")
**John** , I just started a thread on that very topic. It’s still on the front page as of right now. Pretty much, they were fighting in the mountains. But not much. ---
**Author:** ![Aankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@Aankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aankh)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/31 "2003-12-26T02:29:26Z")
Did the dwarves have any rings of magic? Thanks for the heads-up about those books, **bughunter**! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/32 "2003-12-26T02:36:10Z")
Celebrimbor made seven Rings for the Dwarves. Unfortunately for Sauron, they were created by Aule to be resistant to outside control, and the only real effect the Rings had on them was to make their tendency toward greed and love of wealth stronger. Sauron went to great lengths to get them back when he realized the Dwarves weren’t controllable, but managed to get only one (the Ring of Durin’s Folk, which Thorin’s father had). The rest ended up either in dragon hoards or in dragons, as the Dwarf kingdoms fell to the wurms. \*Three Rings for the Elven-kings, under the sky. Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone. Nine for mortal men doomed to die. One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne in the land of Mordor where the shadows lie. One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them. One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them, in the land of Mordor where the shadows lie.\* ---
**Author:** ![Tremmie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Tremmie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tremmie)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/33 "2003-12-26T02:51:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jayjay \* > \*\*Celebrimbor made seven Rings for the Dwarves. Unfortunately for Sauron, they were created by Aule to be resistant to outside control, and the only real effect the Rings had on them was to make their tendency toward greed and love of wealth stronger. Sauron went to great lengths to get them back when he realized the Dwarves weren’t controllable, but managed to get only one (the Ring of Durin’s Folk, which Thorin’s father had). The rest ended up either in dragon hoards or in dragons, as the Dwarf kingdoms fell to the wurms. > > \*\* So why did Sauron want them back so badly? Its clear their love of wealth wasn’t very healthy for the Dwarves (i guess it led them to dig to deep in Moria and wake up the Balrog). Did it help him in any way to get them back? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/34 "2003-12-26T02:57:13Z")
The lesser Rings were powerful in themselves. Sauron had put a lot of work into developing a friendship with the Elves of Eregion and Celebrimbor in particular, and in teaching them to make the lesser Rings. He considered them his, and didn’t want the Dwarves, who were obviously not going to fall into line because of them, to have that power. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/35 "2003-12-26T03:00:59Z")
And to answer the obvious follow-up, he would gladly have taken back the Elven Rings, but they were too powerful and he was too weak after the Siege of Barad-Dur. Galadriel kept him away almost effortlessly with hers, even with his fortress of Dol Guldur just across the Anduin. And hers was the closest of the three. Sauron had almost no direct power in the regions of the far west, Imladris and the lands that Gandalf wandered. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/36 "2003-12-26T03:16:26Z")
Minor nitpick, **jayjay**. Sauron had actually reclaimed 3 of the dwarves rings. The other 4 were consumed by dragons. [http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#79-Fate](http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#79-Fate) For all your ringlore, I recommend [url=“[http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#A](http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#A)”]FAQ of the Rings [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/37 "2003-12-26T03:21:19Z")
I mean [FAQ of the Rings](http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#A) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/38 "2003-12-26T03:36:55Z")
Ah…my wrong. The only one that stuck out for me was Thrain’s. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/39 "2003-12-26T14:49:51Z")
A question I haven’t seen asked: where did the hobbits come from? If they’re in _Silmarillion_, I don’t remember them. ---
**Author:** ![c\_carol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@c\_carol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/c_carol)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/40 "2003-12-27T02:14:35Z")
Hobbits aren’t in the Silm. I can’t think of any reference to them existing before the Third Age. They are probably a kind of subspecies of Men, rather than a totally separate race, so they don’t get their own origin story as Elves and Dwarves do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913.md?page=3)