# The Tolkien General QnA thread. (May not be movie-related, but SPOILERS possible **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [December 19, 2003, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913 "2003-12-19T04:46:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/101 "2004-01-05T17:15:37Z")
Gandalf seemed not at all sure he could best the head Nazgul. From RoTK: > [@](#): > > Denethor: “Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched [by the Witch King]?” “It might be,” Gandalf answered softly. “But our trial of strength is not yet come. And if words spoken of old be true, not by the hand of man shall he fall, and hidden from the Wise is the doom that awaits him.” ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/102 "2004-01-05T17:19:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > **squeegee** , I’ll have to root around for the reference. It certainly is possible I misremember it. Patience with me, please. I gotta go back to work in the morning! Wow, **Qadgop** : there’s a factoid about Arda that you don’t know off the top of your head?!? I am sooo disallusioned! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/103 "2004-01-05T19:09:21Z")
ARGH! For the last time! There was no known specific, literal prophecy concerning the Witch-King of Angmar’s death. He was simply puffed up with his own power and Eowyn was just spitting his own words back in his non-existant face. The WK of A was not really a match for the full might of a Maiar, but then, he never had to face one, either. Neither Gandalf nor even the Balrog were at their true height. He was probably more than enough to take down any mortal being, and without those blades, forged with the intent purpose of killing him and his, even Gandalf might not have had so easy a time of it. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/104 "2004-01-05T19:29:12Z")
To whom are you argh-ing ? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/105 "2004-01-05T21:33:36Z")
And what of the words of Glorfindel to Eärnur? ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/106 "2004-01-05T21:55:58Z")
My questions: 1. What relationship is Isildur to Aragorn? 2. How old was Isildur when he cut the ring off Sauron? 3. How old was he when he lost the ring and died? 4. If he was Aragorn’s father, how old was he when Aragorn was born? 5. Did he have unnatural long life like Aragorn? Was this from his bloodline or because he possesed the ring or a combination of both? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/107 "2004-01-05T22:09:43Z")
Isildur was Aragorn’s great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great…grandfather. Isildur was 232 years old when the Last Alliance defeated Sauron. He lost the Ring and died 2 years later, in TA 2. His youngest son Valandil, in the care of the Elves at Rivendell, became the king of Arnor upon his death (he had actually been heading for Arnor with his three eldest sons when he was ambushed and killed, along with them). Aragorn (born TA 2931) is the descendant of Isildur through Valandil, and his father was Arathorn II, Chieftain of the Dunedain of the North. The long lifespans of Isildur and the Dunedain of the North came from their bloodline and their lifestyle. The men of Gondor lost their long lifetimes more by fading into decadence than through any mixing of blood. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/108 "2004-01-05T22:20:32Z")
Excellent, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/109 "2004-01-05T22:25:14Z")
**The Descent of Aragorn II Elessar Telcontar, King of the Reunited Realms of the Dunedain** Kings of Arnor, the North-Kingdom Elendil Isildur Valandil Eldacar Arantar Tarcil Tarondor Valandur Elendur Eärendur Kings of Arthedain, after the Division of Arnor Amlaith of Fornost Beleg Mallor Celepharn Celebrindor Malvegil Argeleb I Arveleg I Araphor Argeleb II Arvegil Arveleg II Araval Araphant Arvedui Chieftains of the Dunedain of the North, after the destruction of the North-Kingdoms Aranarth Arahael Aranuir Aravir Aragorn I Araglas Arahad I Aragost Aravorn Arahad II Arassuil Arathorn I Argonui Arador Arathorn II Aragorn II (Elessar) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/110 "2004-01-05T22:32:12Z")
So you see, there were an awful lot of "great-"s in there… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2004, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/111 "2004-01-06T01:27:29Z")
**squeegee** , I think you are correct. It appears I mis-remembered Glorfindel’s words to Earnur as having come from Malbeth. I could only find two prophecies by Malbeth, on involving Arvedui, and one involving the Paths of the Dead. I suppose I could be recalling _something_ from HOMES, but I think it more likely I was mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2004, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/112 "2004-01-06T02:14:58Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ve always wondered exactly how strong the Witch-King is in LotR. I haven’t read the books for several years, but IIRC doesn’t the Witch King face Gandalf down when when the ram breaks down the gates at Minas Tirith? I had always been under the impression that Gandalf was preparing for a kind of courageuos last stand, but then the Witch King got distracted and didn’t have the time to tool him proper. Am I wrong? Who has more power (and the freedom to use it) at that point? I actually sort of got the sense that they were not necessarily tangling physically, but more on the level of a test of wills. Gandalf’s flaming spirit of hope inspiring people vs. WK’s dark doom driving on the orcs and spreading fear. That was why the arrival of the riders was sort of a “win” for Gandalf, even if they didn’t come to blows directly. Not sure who would win given that neither can really be killed. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2004, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/113 "2004-01-06T02:32:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jayjay \* > \*\*Isildur was Aragorn’s great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great…grandfather. Isildur was 232 years old when the Last Alliance defeated Sauron. > … \*\* Damn, I had no idea Isildur was so old. How old, then, was Elendil when he died? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/114 "2004-01-06T02:34:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Not sure who would win given that neither can really be killed. Wait a sec. Wiki can be killed – never mind that he’s already dead. As proof I offer that he _was_ killed by Eowyn. And Gandalf had already died once, so I’d think he could be killed again. He’d come back again, of course, but probably not in time for second-breakfast. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2004, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/115 "2004-01-06T02:42:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by squeegee \* > \*\ ***Qadgop** ,[nitpick] > Gandalf said, to Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli upon returning as Gandalf the White, “Indeed my friends, none of you has any weapon that can hurt me.” So, where is Sauron mentioned, … > [/nitpick] \*\* A little bit after this Gandalf says to Gimli:"…‘Dangerous!..And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.’" This implies that he is at this point more powerful than any being in ME but Sauron. I agree with you that when Gandalf says he can’t be harmed by any weapon the Three Hunters posses that doesn’t mean he can’t be harmed by other weapons. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2004, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/116 "2004-01-06T02:43:46Z")
Elendil was 322 when he was killed _in battle_ at the Siege of Barad-dûr. In other words, he wasn’t a doddering coot. Of course, neither was Isildur. It could be claimed that he was cut down in the prime of life. Elros (Elrond’s brother who chose to become a Man instead of an Elf), from whom the line of Numenorean nobility sprung, lived to be 500 years old. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2004, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/117 "2004-01-06T03:21:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Laughing Lagomorph \* > A little bit after this Gandalf says to Gimli:"…‘Dangerous!..And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.’" This implies that he is at this point more powerful than any being in ME but Sauron. Hmmm, point taken. I’d forgotten that part. This must be what **Qadgop** was thinking of. However, Gandalf then goes on to say that Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are also dangerous as well, which blunts the meaning for me. ISTM that Gandalf’s basically having fun with Gimli, who’d just said that Fangorn sounds very dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2004, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/118 "2004-01-06T17:02:01Z")
My question: At the end of TTT when Faramir decides to let Sam and Frodo continue their journey, he is told that if he lets them go his life would be forfeit. I know the relationship between Faramir and his father was not exactly healthy, but why was his life in forfeit? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2004, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/119 "2004-01-06T18:15:38Z")
Okay, question-I saw the movies, now I’m reading the book (I only hope I can finish it before it’s due even after I renew it!) What is the deal with that Tom Bombadil guy? Is he relevant? Because it seemed really weird and I didn’t see the point. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/120 "2004-01-06T18:29:40Z")
Bombadil is a bit of a sideshow, not all that relevant to the story. I didn’t much care for that part of the book, but there is a good deal of foreshadowing and character development for the hobbits during the whole Bombadil section, so it’s not entirely a throw-away. A purvey-Bombadil-fancier will be along presently to bite my head off. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913.md?page=7)