# The Tolkien General QnA thread. (May not be movie-related, but SPOILERS possible **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [December 19, 2003, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913 "2003-12-19T04:46:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/161 "2004-01-09T02:32:43Z")
This question may be unanswerable, but how much human blood did a partial Elf need to have to be able to choose death instead of immortality? Arwen was only 3/16 Man, but she was allowed to choose death. If she had married an Elf instead of Aragorn, her kids would have been 3/32 Man-- not enough? Or does any taint of Man allow a person the option to die? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/162 "2004-01-09T02:41:27Z")
Despite all of our dividing and multiplying of grandparents and great-grandparents, I don’t think the concept of “half-elven” really had anything to do with what we know of modern genetics. I seriously doubt that Tolkien would have considered (had the very concepts been known at the time he was writing LotR) modern DNA analysis to figure out just how much Elf or Man his characters were. As far as can be told, the situation was rare enough that it was considered by the Powers That Was on a case-by-case basis. Only roughly seven beings in the entire 10s of thousands of years of history in Arda were given such a choice. I’d consider it to be in the nature of Valan fiat as to who got to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/163 "2004-01-09T02:46:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jayjay \* > \*\*I think Sméagol wasn’t a very nice person in the first place. The Ring didn’t really have to do much to him to push him over the edge, as he really didn’t have all that many scruples against murder originally. \*\* I agree. Also, later on Gandalf makes much of the fact that Bilbo started his possesion of the Ring by NOT killing Gollum when he had the chance, out of pity for how pathetic Gollum was. It was Gandalf’s opinion that one of the reasons the Ring affected Bilbo as little as it did was because he started his possesion of it in this way. Frodo is probably helped by the fact that he takes on the ring more or less involuntarily…he never asks for it or wants it, it just becomes his. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/164 "2004-01-09T02:48:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jayjay \* > **Despite all of our dividing and multiplying of grandparents and great-grandparents, I don’t think the concept of “half-elven” really had anything to do with what we know of modern genetics. I seriously doubt that Tolkien would have considered (had the very concepts been known at the time he was writing LotR) modern DNA analysis to figure out just how much Elf or Man his characters were. …** As a molecular biologist/geneticist and Tolkien fan I have often pondered what sort of biochemical properties Elven DNA must have to make it different from and yet compatible with human DNA. I wonder if those Elf genes are dominant or recessive anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/165 "2004-01-09T03:00:55Z")
Figuring out how much Man blood a person had has nothing to do with modern DNA or genetics. It’s just math, man. I don’t think the Valar do a gene count to figure out who gets to choose, but there must be some rhyme or reason to it, no? So who exactly is a mix of Man and Elf? Tell me if this is a complete list (assuming the cut off at Arwen and her brothers): Dior (son of Beren and Luthien) Elurin, Elurin, Elwing (children of Dior) Earendil (son of Tuor and Idril) Elrond and Elros (offspring of Elwing and Earendil) Arwen, Elladan, and Elrohir (children of Elrond) That’s 10. Were they all given the choice to be mortal or immortal? If not, why were some and not others? When Elros chose to be mortal, I assume that removed the ability to choose from his 4 children? Who was the wife of Elros? Was she a Numenorean? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/166 "2004-01-09T03:24:06Z")
Dior doesn’t seem to have been given the choice, perhaps because he was his grandfather’s heir as king of the Sindar. Elwing’s siblings, Elurín and Eluréd, were lost during the Sacking of Menegroth, so we never really do find out if they would have been given the choice. Arwen is really the only offspring of Elrond whose choice is explicitly made known. I don’t know that I’ve ever actually come across anything that definitely stated that Elladan and Elrohir went over Sea or not. If there’s anyone with less column-inches in the published works of Middle-Earth than Elwing’s brothers, it’s Elros’s children. We know the eldest abdicated, when Elros finally died, in favor of his own son. Other than that, all we really know is names. I don’t know that his wife is ever named or mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/167 "2004-01-09T15:06:23Z")
(To further muddy the waters) But Elves can also choose the Doom of Men. Luthien did. I always assumed that’s what Arwen is doing, since there are so many Luthien references about Arwen’s choice and Arwen’s fate. Not only did Arwen resemble Luthien Tinuviel, but she also followed into Luthien’s Doom. Her lineage is so mixed up anyway, I never figured it was a “is she half-elven enough” deal. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/168 "2004-01-09T15:37:24Z")
I’ve always considered Lúthien a special case, though, as she had to do some major charming, singing and fast talking to get Mandos to grant her and Beren a second lifetime. It’s not as if she just “chose” to be mortal. She had to work for that Gift! ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/169 "2004-01-09T15:58:44Z")
_Laughing Lagomorph_ wrote: > [@](#): > > As a molecular biologist/geneticist and Tolkien fan I have often pondered what sort of biochemical properties Elven DNA must have to make it different from and yet compatible with human DNA. Hoo boy. Just don’t try to think about the coupling of Thingol and Melian, then 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/170 "2004-01-09T16:02:07Z")
Speaking of which, since reading the Silmarillion, I’ve wondered if the fact that Aragorn is descended from a Maia influences his powers in ME, especially in his contest of wills with Sauron. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/171 "2004-01-09T17:07:21Z")
Perhaps; but I doubt if Aragorn’s ancestry was much help. Aragorn is .000001% Maia. Sauron _is_ a Maia. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/172 "2004-01-09T17:15:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jayjay \* > If there’s anyone with less column-inches in the published works of Middle-Earth than Elwing’s brothers, it’s Elros’s children. We know the eldest abdicated, when Elros finally died, in favor of his own son. Other than that, all we really know is names. I don’t know that his wife is ever named or mentioned. I suffer from only having Vols. I, II, IV, and V of HOME, but here’s what we have on Elros’s children: [quote] _II Vardamir Nolimon_ He was born in the year 61 of the Second Age and died in 471. He was called Nolimon for his chief love was for ancient lore, which he gathered from Elves and Men. Upon the departure [abdication and death] of Elros, being then 381 years of age, he did not ascend the throne, but geve the sceptre to his son. He is nonetheless accounted the second of the Kings, and is deemed to have reigned one year. It remained the custom thereafter until the days of Tar-Atanamir that the King should yield the sceptor to his successor before he died, and the Kingd died of free will while yet in vigour of mind. (\*Unfinished Tales, pp.228-9). In the genealogical table on p.221, Elros Tar-Minyatur’s children are listed, in order, as: 1. Vardamir Nolimon (61-471) 2. Tindomiel (dau.) 3. Manwendil 4. Atanalcar Vardamir’s children, also in order, are: 1. Tar-Amandil (192-603) 2. Vardilmë (dau., b. 203) 3. Aulendil (b. 213) 4. Nolondil (b. 222) The only spouses noted in the Line of Elros fall significantly later in the lineage. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/173 "2004-01-09T19:29:26Z")
(Warning: I’m working only from several reads of LOTR and The Hobbit, multiple viewings of the films, and one torturous pass through the Silmarilion.) Where is it said that Sauron took back the rings of the 9? I always assumed they still had them. Could he find another 9 powerful men and pull the same trick again, adding another batch of 9 to his ringwraith army? (repeat as necessary until out of fools who take rings from strangers) ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/174 "2004-01-09T19:37:00Z")
Gonzoron, the reason for the controversy about The Nine (that I alluded to above) is Tolkien’s oblique writing style. The only statement on the subject is something Gandalf says at the Council of Elrond: “the nine (rings of men) he has gathered to himself” (or something like that). Does that means literally; or just that the Nazgul are enslaved? ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/175 "2004-01-09T19:54:03Z")
What is the relationship between the cities of Osgiliath and Gondor? In TTT it is implied that they were conquered and then retaken by Faramir, but it’s all very unclear. Also, why is Faramir’s father so hostile to him? Did Faramir really screw up once and Dad just can’t get over it? Boromir at least treats him decent. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/176 "2004-01-09T20:01:38Z")
[http://tolkien.cro.net/rings/nazgul.html](http://tolkien.cro.net/rings/nazgul.html) It’s mostly from extra-curricular sources (Unfinished Tales, Tolkien’s later letters, etc.): > [@](#): > > Galadriel also confirms this by telling Frodo while in Lothlórien: > > “You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine.” > [The Fellowship of the Ring] > > Then we have the following accounts from The Hunt for the Ring in Unfinished Tales: > > “At length he (Sauron) resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.” > > “They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held…” > [Unfinished Tales] > > These statements clearly show that it was Sauron who held the rings and so controlled the Nazgûl. > > The most definitive statement comes from one of his letters describing the situation of Frodo at the Cracks of Doom and is extremely informative concerning the nature of One Ring: > > “Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring…But the situation was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to use (in vain) the Ring’s subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination? Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills…” > [The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #246] > > It would appear from the above body of evidence that when Sauron first claimed the Nine he then gave the Nine Rings to Mortal Men who used the power of their rings for dominance and control. In the end, they faded and became Wraiths - at which point Sauron took their rings back to hold and so control his most feared servants. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/177 "2004-01-09T20:23:19Z")
> [@](#): > > What is the relationship between the cities of Osgiliath and Gondor? > > In TTT it is implied that they were conquered and then retaken by Faramir, but it’s all very unclear. Osgiliath, which straddles the river Anduin, was once the capital of the land of Gondor. The current city of Minas Tirith was, at first, merely a Gondorian military outpost to the west, and the current Nazgul stronghold of Minas Morgul was a sister-tower to the east. But then the power of Gondor began to wane, and the Nazgul took over Minas Morgul (then called Minas Ithil) and laid waste to Osgiliath. Minas Tirith (then called Minas Anor) became the new capital, and the forces of the two towers always struggled over the ruins of Osgiliath and the crossings of the river. In Denethor’s reign, Boromir won back control of Osgiliath and the Gondorians fortified it as best they could and used the river crossings to get soldiers and arms into the region on the east of the river, Ithilien, where they could harass Sauron’s forces. But during RotK, the Gondorians lose the city completely, and must retreat to Minas Tirith for a seige. > [@](#): > > Also, why is Faramir’s father so hostile to him? Did Faramir really screw up once and Dad just can’t get over it? Boromir at least treats him decent. It’s the usual father-son crap. Faramir didn’t really screw up. He was very similar to Denethor–brave, skilled in battle, yet wise and learned–whereas Boromir was a mere man of action, with no love of lore. But that’s the way people are, sometimes–they like those different from themselves better than those that are too similar. Plus, Faramir had a tendency to listen to Gandalf a lot, which made Denethor jealous, esp. since Boromir pretty much did whatever dad told him to. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/178 "2004-01-09T20:31:53Z")
regarding question by Autz as to Denethor & Faramir’s relationship: Faramir was more studious than Boromir, and more of a friend with Gandalf. Denethor was jealous of Gandalf’s relationship to him, and also did not think too highly of Faramir’s non-warrior interest. Additionally, didn’t Faramir’s mother die shortly after he was born? I think Denethor felt bad toward because of that. In general Denethor just liked Boromir best… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/179 "2004-01-10T03:19:50Z")
So Arwen dies-how many years after Aragorn died? And then, did Elrond (in the movie, that is), tell her that her soul would dwell with mortal souls, or something? I mean, why else would she allow herself to die, and NOT go to the Undying Lands, like Aragorn tried to tell her on her death bed (the book). Poor girl. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913/180 "2004-01-10T03:29:31Z")
Arwen died the year after Aragorn did. When she gave up her immortality, she accepted the Gift of Men, and her spirit, after spending a short period of time in the Halls of Mandos, escaped beyond the borders of Arda. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tolkien-general-qna-thread-may-not-be-movie-related-but-spoilers-possible/219913.md?page=10)