# The Toronto G20 Summit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 26, 2010, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580 "2010-06-26T09:01:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580/121 "2010-06-27T21:02:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Now that I see why you bothered to even post in this thread, fuck, your dumber than I thought. (And that’s saying something!) But I’ll explain it to you anyway. > > Now pay attention: the threat to a bicycle officer alone on the border with multiple people throwing rocks at him as he is trying to arrest someone DOES NOT EQUATE to the threat to a cop in riot gear with a few hundred fellow officers right there with him. But if that threat should rise to the level of an officer fearing for his personal safety, then yes, shoot the uncivilized asshole. That’s what the gun is for. > > I’m not very optimistic, but I hope that helps. Just the type of answer I expected from my racist little hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580/122 "2010-06-27T21:04:25Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > Sorry, you lost me - what does ‘land under cultivation’ have to do with anything? I don’t care if it’s my house, my porch, my garden, my cornfield, my manure pile or my pig pen, if you’re standing in it/on it without my permission, you’re trespassing. The difference is between the test for civil trespass and the test for a conviction for trespass as a provincial offence. With civil trespass, if the person is on your land without legal cause, then there is trespass, and you can sue him for the damage he causes. This does not necessarily mean that the trespass is prohibited by provincial or federal statute. For a provincial conviction, the trespass must be prohibited, and there usually needs to be some sort of notice, be it a written trespass notice delivered to the potential trespasser, or a sign on a fence, or a fence itself, or an old geezer shouting “get the hell off my lawn!” Sometimes trespass is prohibited by provincial law even if there is no notice, as set out in s. 3 of the act, which pertains primarily to agricultural land. Federally, trespass is prohibited at night. Trespass to property is trespass to property is trespass to property, but there are different hoops to jump through depending on whether the trespasser is being nailed for civil trespass, provincial offence trespass, or federal offence trespass. In Spoons hypothetical, one assumes plucking rocks from a typical residential yard in downtown Toronto, which most likely would be a lawn or a garden, and therefore there would be no notice requirement under the provincial Trespass Act. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580/123 "2010-06-27T21:14:21Z")
> [@Baffle](#): > > \ > We did come through probably better than any G8 country – but no thanks to Stephen Harper. \ That’s certainly debatable, with no real way of coming to a definite answer. I’ll tell you one thing; I was okay with having a Prime Minister who has a Master’s Degree in economics as leader while we swirled around in global financial meltdown. I don’t understand why the G8/G20 meetings had to be in Toronto, either - I can think of only a few worse places in Canada for them, for all the usual reasons. But this is where they had them, and that’s that. As for a couple of people being injured and a couple of police officers enjoying their job a little too much, I have two things to say about that; one, an easy way to not get injured was to not go there. Millions of Torontonians were not injured this weekend. Two, I saw an interview with a Russian ex-cop or ex-military or something guy, and his response on the subject of the Canadian police presence sort of snapped things into perspective; according to him (and we’ve heard enough stories to back him up), the Russian police response in such situations would make our Canadian police look like calmness and temperance personified. There are many countries in the world where protestors are considered enemies of the state and treated accordingly. I can tell you as a homeowner that no one in any circumstances is welcome to do ANYTHING to my front yard. If it’s not yours, you can stay off it and keep your grubby paws off it. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580/124 "2010-06-27T21:17:35Z")
I thought I might as well post these up, as I’m sure we’re going to hear lots about this in the next few weeks. There are two pieces of evidence being circulated that some claim prove that the police and security forces used agents provocateurs. More are supposed to follow… 1. An article on the website [Global Research.ca](http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19928) 2. A [YouTube video purporting](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r-6cnGkp3Y) to out 5 late 20s/early 30s gentlemen. While I am holding an open mind about the possibility, so far, the evidence I’ve seen amounts to - a) they admitted to doing it once before. b) their shoes look like new cop boots. (Like the kind you might have stolen from a store window a couple of minutes ago? I used to wear Lomac brand cop boots, made for the RCMP, back in the 80s. They were available at many Army Surplus stores. Doc Martens were at least $200., Lomacs were $40. and I was too honest to steal.) c) They’re too healthy and strong looking to be protesters. (Are you judging by appearances?) d) The men in the YouTube video are big guys who maintain a stoic silence in the face of being taunted by an aggressive jerk. This evidence is either from a source with a bias (#1) or from an unattested source (#2), making it further suspect. When Steve Paikin says he saw a reporter being mistreated, he has a certain credibility. Anonymous sources have significantly less credibility. The other possibility is that the Black Bloc or other groups of thugs are trying to plant evidence that the cops are using agents provocateurs. It’s funny, once you get that paranoid, any interpretation of the evidence becomes possible. Personally, I tend to believe the eye witnesses that put the least interpretation on events, reporting the facts as they saw them and letting me draw the conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580/125 "2010-06-27T21:35:40Z")
> [@Baffle](#): > > One coworker, an accountant for fifteen years, was paid $25 an hour pre-recession, but the same job now goes for $15 an hour (and it’s a hell of a commute for him, too). A sign of an overinflated salary? Perhaps. But it’s also a sign of an excessive supply of accountants fostered by slackening standards in post-secondary institutions (unless you believe the population is just getting smarter). It is an indication of there having been significant success in making post-secondary education accessible to all, rather than limited to the rich. What a person does with his or her education is up to that person. For example, an accountant earning $25 per hour sounds like a bookeeper or a low end CMA/CGA rather than an actual CA. It behoves one at the low end of the career totem pole to make one’s self more marketable, rather than remain at a low level for a decade and a half. It is not up to the government to do this for a person. What the government does attempt to do, and in Canada’s case has done very well in comparison to the USA, is moderate the boom and bust cycle so that people have economic stability, provide an environment in which businesses can succeed and therefore employ people, and provide a safety net for those who through no fault of their own fall through the cracks – thus universal health insurance, unemployment insurance, disability assisance, social assistance, huge subsidies for post-secondary insitutions, and a raft of other services and benefits designed to help people here. No one ever said that earning a living is easy. > [@Baffle](#): > > Personally, I was an assistant in a marketing company. We managed the scheduling and sales of a group of motivational speakers. I can’t think of an industry that took a bigger hit in the latest recession – it seemed every news article everywhere was decrying the “wasteful spending” going towards the event planning industry. There again it comes down to picking a career, knowing full well that over time one must expect occasional bad times. Motivational speaking is fluff. One should not expect it to prosper in an economic slump. That is not something that should be blamed on the government. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580/126 "2010-06-27T21:39:42Z")
Combat boots are easily found in any number of stores, and unlike the Montibello pictures, it doesn’t appear to be that those boots are identical to the ones worn by police - at least, it’s not obviously apparent that they are. All combat boots look pretty much the same unless there’s a colourful or distinctive trait to them. The video doesn’t seem to have images of those people starting riots, so what on earth does it have to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580/127 "2010-06-27T21:46:09Z")
You know, I wouldn’t rule agents provocateurs out entirely. In 2007, at the Montebello Summit, the Quebec police admitted to planting three men in with the protestors. [http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/06/18/g20-activists.html](http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/06/18/g20-activists.html) and > **[Breaking News - Headlines & Top Stories | The Star](https://www.thestar.com/)** > > thestar.com is Canada’s largest online news site. Live news, investigations, politics, sports and the heartbeat of Toronto, Canada's largest city. I’ve participated in civil dissent and disobedience since the Vietnam war. I remember too many times when a large and peaceful crowd assembled with the leaders constantly emphasizing nonviolence. All of our attention would be focused on a speaker and suddenly, bam, a police car was on fire. Which of course gave the riot police liberty to come in swinging. At a march in Washington during the Bush regime, a bunch of boys in black took off down a side street to whip up some shit. A group of middle aged protestors held them down and sat on them until the march went by. They just weren’t that tough. The government fuels the tension with barracades and police in riot gear, armed to the teeth. Violence distracts from the message(s) of the protestors and the focus becomes the “G-20” thugs. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580/128 "2010-06-27T21:46:52Z")
> [@Baffle](#): > > Otherwise, notice is required – either by signage, oral or written warning, or some red dot system I don’t quite understand. A red dot means stop, if you enter you will be trespassing. A yellow dot means caution, if you enter you may be trespassing, so you had best first determine if it is OK or not to enter. For example, a school yard that allows the public to use it’s ball field in the evening but otherwise does not permit people on its grounds might post a yellow dot. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580/129 "2010-06-27T21:50:35Z")
> [@jlzania](#): > > You know, I wouldn’t rule agents provocateurs out entirely. > In 2007, at the Montebello Summit, the Quebec police admitted to planting three men in with the protestors. Having three plainclothes police officers in a large crowd is miles away from the use of agent provacateurs. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580/130 "2010-06-27T21:57:50Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The video doesn’t seem to have images of those people starting riots, so what on earth does it have to do with anything? The proof is in the next two videos, which aren’t up yet. :dubious: If you accept the assertion that those men are undercover police officers (To be clear - I don’t! That’s an allegation, it is unsubstantiated. At most, I will grant that it is a _possibility_ that the men in that video are undercover cops.), it still proves nothing other than that there were cops undercover among the protesters. If, when, those other two videos appear (I’ve been waiting to see them since I saw this earlier this morning. Benefit of the doubt - maybe that guy got himself arrested since he posted the first one…) I will watch them and judge their evidence for myself. For the record, I know that Che Guevara is from Argentina, but I’d probably be trying to ignore that jerk as well, if that were me. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580/131 "2010-06-27T22:02:13Z")
> [@jlzania](#): > > You know, I wouldn’t rule agents provocateurs out entirely. > In 2007, at the Montebello Summit, the Quebec police admitted to planting three men in with the protestors. > [http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/06/18/g20-activists.html](http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/06/18/g20-activists.html) > and > [Breaking News - Headlines & Top Stories | The Star](http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/249291) > > I’ve participated in civil dissent and disobedience since the Vietnam war. > I remember too many times when a large and peaceful crowd assembled with the leaders constantly emphasizing nonviolence. All of our attention would be focused on a speaker and suddenly, bam, a police car was on fire. > Which of course gave the riot police liberty to come in swinging. > > At a march in Washington during the Bush regime, a bunch of boys in black took off down a side street to whip up some shit. A group of middle aged protestors held them down and sat on them until the march went by. They just weren’t that tough. > The government fuels the tension with barracades and police in riot gear, armed to the teeth. > Violence distracts from the message(s) of the protestors and the focus becomes the “G-20” thugs. Fair enough - I’m not ruling them out entirely, I’m just not convinced by the evidence presented thus far. I do not find the sources impartial, and I find there is more spin than factual content. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580/132 "2010-06-27T22:09:52Z")
There is a great difference between being an agent provocateur and simply infiltrating. Since infiltration would not give rise to a defence whereas provocation would give rise to a defence, it would behove the police to not cross the line between the one and the other. That, and the police do not need to provoke anything. The anarchists have proven themselves quite capable of smashing things up without any outside provocation. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580/133 "2010-06-27T22:14:05Z")
All I can say is, thank God this wasn’t a tea party rally. Because everyone knows those people are angry and violent. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580/134 "2010-06-27T22:15:42Z")
> [@Baffle](#): > > A secret regulation had been introduced requiring identification even outside of the security perimeter. Nothing secret about it. It would behove protesters who are testing the line to be current on the law. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580/135 "2010-06-27T22:18:21Z")
Anyone know what the deal with the protesters in the sewers was about? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580/136 "2010-06-27T22:34:30Z")
I should certainly hope that the police _did_ have plainclothes officers in the protest groups. I’m not going to believe in the absence of strong evidence that they were agents provocateurs though. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580/137 "2010-06-27T22:47:06Z")
Any details on the arrests of the anarchists with the Molotov cocktails? ---
**Author:** ![Baffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dec6dc/32.png) [@Baffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baffle)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580/138 "2010-06-27T23:20:43Z")
Just caught a report on CTV of the police arresting their cameraman, simply for standing in the wrong place. Unfortunately we’re getting a major electrical storm through here and my internet connection is spotty. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580/139 "2010-06-27T23:26:10Z")
CTV BC - [With multiple Toronto protests, police kept busy.](http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100627/g20-protests-100627/20100627/?hub=BritishColumbiaHome) It’s pouring right now - not sure if that’s making life any easier for either side. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580/140 "2010-06-27T23:32:47Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > All I can say is, thank God this wasn’t a tea party rally. Because everyone knows those people are angry and violent. You know how the youngsters are, full of piss and vinegar. The fringe right — being older, fatter, and statistically more impressive — sits back and waits for the violence to come to them, dreaming dreams of unnecessary force. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toronto-g20-summit/544580.md?page=8)