# The torture of a twelve year old girl? Time to leave... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2004, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102 "2004-05-07T23:46:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/201 "2004-05-10T22:13:02Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > sure. > > But considering that the people who have used this formula to describe the pix (I’m assuming graman actually SAW the photo) would have an interest against ambiguity if they could say: > > a picture of someone desecrating a corpse > > or > > a picture of someone gloating over a corpse. > > I fear that the key words here are “behavior” and “inappropriate”, where inappropriate segues into deviant… I suspect that instead that it’s some sort of an officialese charge. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/202 "2004-05-10T22:17:36Z")
Jeez, **Al** , lighten up a bit, OK? **Simon** is a registered Republican, fer Chrissake, and I’m just a country boy from Waco. Not all of us share your tolerance for post-modernist Mapplethorpe-meets-Hannibal Lecter type perv. Or, as Descartes once remarked, _“Le Ewwwwwww!”_ ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/203 "2004-05-10T22:20:17Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Jeez, **Al** , lighten up a bit, OK? **Simon** is a registered Republican, fer Chrissake, and I’m just a country boy from Waco. Not all of us share your tolerance for post-modernist Mapplethorpe-meets-Hannibal Lecter type perv. > > Or, as Descartes once remarked, _“Le Ewwwwwww!”_ I just sayin’… I think the “i.b.” thing is the closest a guy like Lindsey Graham can get to the action in the picture. I think that’s what has Rumsfeld white as a ghost. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/204 "2004-05-10T22:21:33Z")
notice that everything else gets spelled out. iraqi guards raping teenage boyse, tec. this is really the only area of ambiguity. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/205 "2004-05-10T22:23:13Z")
So now they claim that there is a videotape,apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys. (quoting my reply on this at other thread) _Iraqi guards_ ? There say now that there were _Iraqi guards_ in that prison (or in others)? Since when do the occupyers employ (read: trust) _Iraqi guards_ for guarding the “dangerous Iraqis”? And _Iraqi guards_ were raping young boys? Well, call me incurable sceptical, but unless the occupyers rounded up some Iraqi pedophiles or frustrated homosexuals or some ex-Sadam-torturers or some people belonging to the mini-mini minority of non Muslim population, I think I shall need to see the evidence of such a claim before I can imagine myself that _Muslim Iraqi guards_ can be ordered by the foreign occupyers to rape young boys. If there were _Iraqi guards_ effectively doing this, I would vote for the ex saddam torturers. Seems very consistent to me with the US policy there. As for Bush and Rumsfeld being so stupid to openly declare that they did not see “any pictures” until a few hours before they said they didn’t see them: If they think that is a good PR show, they “ain’t seen nothing yet”. Making such a claim only adds to the impression that they by all means want to cover up the Cover Up. In addition they come across as extremely stupid in handling this covering up the Cover Up. If they were not in the least interested in seeing the pictures about the abuse they were informed about months ago, it means that the whole thing had not a shred of their interest and was considered as the normal procedure for “handling” prisoners. Transfer these feelings to Iraq and the rest of the region and you get an idea why those pictures keep showing up in the media, why Bush’s patethic arrogant paternalistic monologue had nobody’s interest and why his pictured is carried around with “Terrorist Die” as decoration. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/206 "2004-05-10T22:23:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Jeez, **Al** , lighten up a bit, OK? **Simon** is a registered Republican, fer Chrissake, and I’m just a country boy from Waco. Not all of us share your tolerance for post-modernist Mapplethorpe-meets-Hannibal Lecter type perv. > > Or, as Descartes once remarked, _“Le Ewwwwwww!”_ That cracks me up–I was way too vanilla for my last girlfriend… ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/207 "2004-05-10T22:45:37Z")
Can I have her phone number? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/208 "2004-05-10T23:05:30Z")
[QUOTE=alaricthegoth] [QUOTE=Zagadka] I wouldn’t put my money on that. It’ll go underground now. It will be less, certainly, but maybe they just won’t keep taking pictures and video of it, and be sure to “dispose” of the witnesses (victims) > [@](#): > > I just got a bone deep conviction that the pix and videos were an integral part of the “process” and not just a perverted trophy taking. > > I think it was like "check it out habib-not only did I shove my flashlight up your ass, but I am posting a picture of it on the internet where the whole world will see it… [http://www.juancole.com/2004\_05\_01\_juancole\_archive.html#108417190568808803](http://www.juancole.com/2004_05_01_juancole_archive.html#108417190568808803) On Wolf Blitzer on Sunday, Hersh said he thought that the photographs of the abuse and torture were themselves attempts to manipulate prisoners, since they were threatened with the revelation of their humiliation to friends and family ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/209 "2004-05-10T23:12:13Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Can I have her phone number? I don’t think you really want it– her ambition, (when last seen by the king of the visigoths) was to find and fuck a “fully functioning” pre op (I guess that goes without saying…) transexual… ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/210 "2004-05-10T23:14:05Z")
Hey, anyone remember when George W. Bush was [outraged](http://argument.independent.co.uk/leading_articles/story.jsp?story=390504) over the “inhumane” treatment of American POWs by Saddam? All that posturing about how showing captured Americans being interviewed on Iraqi television was a violation of the Geneva convention? All those [conservatives](http://wwwc.house.gov/everett/news/columns/col_033103.asp) saying Saddam has been revealed as a brute that the world must condemn? Ah, those were the days… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/211 "2004-05-10T23:21:57Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Hey, anyone remember when George W. Bush was [outraged](http://argument.independent.co.uk/leading_articles/story.jsp?story=390504) over the “inhumane” treatment of American POWs by Saddam? All that posturing about how showing captured Americans being interviewed on Iraqi television was a violation of the Geneva convention? All those [conservatives](http://wwwc.house.gov/everett/news/columns/col_033103.asp) saying Saddam has been revealed as a brute that the world must condemn? > > Ah, those were the days… yeah remember how we pissed all over him for stroking that kid’s head before gulf war one. Boy, I’ll bet there are a few kids from Ghraibgate who’d love to trade places with that kid… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/212 "2004-05-11T00:52:33Z")
BY **elucidator** : _You pose your question as if you think I hadn’t considered it. “Well now, look here, 'Luc, old duck, you do realize that this could result in civil war? Now that I have enlightened your dim perception, surely you will recant!”_ I don’t see anything in my post that implies that you are less than bright. If it appears that way to you, allow me to apologize. Now, I’m getting to be like the porcupine making love: I’ve enjoyed about all of this good stuff I can stand. All’s not lost, however. Because of this thread I’ve learned that there exists a fruit called a fava bean that may be mixed in a blender with other substances and the resulting slurry poured over steak strips for an acceptable meal. See y’all around. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/213 "2004-05-11T01:42:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I am suggesting that we may not have any other option but rule by direct force. . I read recently an article where a middle-east schlar and expert stated that according to him, the only otptions left to the US at this point if they wanted to stay in Irak was, indeed brute force or…large-scale bribery. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/214 "2004-05-11T01:58:39Z")
Me, I’ll take bribery. Lots & lots of it. It’s what makes the world go round, and is way preferable to setting dogs on helpless naked prisoners. You catch more flies with honey and all that… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/215 "2004-05-11T02:05:25Z")
it’s a shame they rejected bribery when it could have done some real good > **[200 Billion for blowing them up, versus 200 Million to buy them off?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=252910)** > > Prince Bandar told dumb George to buy Saddam’s government out from under him, lock, stock and two blazing barrels. This from our 'closest ally" and the next door neighbor of our enemy. This from a guy who knows the ground, and is fundamentally (on... Now, they’re ready to un-ass a shekel or two… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/216 "2004-05-11T05:40:21Z")
> [@pantom](#): > > …You catch more flies with honey and all that… Its true you draw more flies with honey. Shit, however, is irresistable. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/217 "2004-05-11T14:32:35Z")
What I find amazing is the whole discussion here about a story of a 12 year old girl that “can not be proved to be true independantly”. Aside from the fact that there are other stories that can be proved, which maked this particular story likely to be tru… Where were all of you when the USA dared to come up at the UN itself with stories that were not veryfied, with outright inventions and lies and with openly neglecting (read: ridiculising) the findings of Hans Blix who said what they claimed as truth could not be veryfied independently at that stage of the ongoing inspections? Where were you, when your Bush Maffia used these non-proved inventions to invade and occupy a sovereign nation? Where are you now? I even read here that there are poster who **still** plann to vote for this arrogant mass murderer you call president. I must say to them and those who argue here about the story of that 12 year old that for them “needs to be confirmed independently” : Congratulations. You convinced yourself once again that you are able to think and reason “independantly” reyling on “proof” and nothing but the “proof”. Of your truth. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/218 "2004-05-11T16:05:26Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > What I find amazing is the whole discussion here about a story of a 12 year old girl that “can not be proved to be true independantly”. > > Aside from the fact that there are other stories that can be proved, which maked this particular story likely to be tru… > > Salaam. A It does give one pause, does it not? The odd thing is, I really tried to take the whole “sourcing” red herring off the table, but, by god, they were right there with the bullshit… not to mention that stripping and beating a 12 year old girfl is, I guaran-fuckin’-ty, well towards the MIDDLE of the spectrum of horrors that have occurred, that are ocurring today, and that will continue to occur as long as these criminal adventurers continue in control of the world’s most powerful nation. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/219 "2004-05-11T16:25:55Z")
The cracker of the year award is reserved for those persons burdened by a southern accent, who nonetheless display an astonishing ability to reason clearly and (god help me, apparantly) the intellectual honesty to follow the trail of their own thoughts to a politically unpalatable conclusion. In that vein, a nomination for the first year’s award. Graham is going up the chain of command like the lawyer he wanted to be when he was a little boy. The debate: Moved, the question:Since it is constituionally impossible for a Repubolican to be intellectually honest, Lindsey Graham must be a plant, a clone, an alien masquerading as a republican senator, or some other kind of double agent. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/220 "2004-05-11T16:39:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Hey, anyone remember when George W. Bush was outraged over the “inhumane” treatment of American POWs by Saddam? All that posturing about how showing captured Americans being interviewed on Iraqi television was a violation of the Geneva convention? All those conservatives saying Saddam has been revealed as a brute that the world must condemn? Oh, just wait. We are quickly approaching stage 4: where, after downplaying the abuse or blaming it all ona six deviants has failed, right wing pundits are going to start arguing that the abuses were justified. > **[Opinion](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/?xml=%2Fopinion%2F2004%2F05%2F10%2Fdo1001.xml&sSheet=%2Fportal%2F2004%2F05%2F10%2Fixportal.html)** > > The best opinions, comments and analysis from The Telegraph. The Four Stages of Republican denial: > [@](#): > > [http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004\_05/003864.php](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_05/003864.php) > The conservative response to Abu Ghraib has been fascinating, hasn’t it? First reaction: this is horrible and the soldiers involved should have the book thrown at them. > > Second reaction: yeah, it’s bad, it really is, but it’s worth remembering that it’s nowhere near as bad as what Saddam did. > > Third reaction: enough, enough! Jeez, it’s been a whole week. This issue has been hijacked by militant Bush-haters who just want to use it for craven partisan reasons. > > Fourth reaction: still to come. Maybe torturers as heroes thanks to testimony from someone or other that one of the scraps of information they extracted saved a convoy somewhere? Hey, war is hell. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102.md?page=12)