# The torture of a twelve year old girl? Time to leave... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2004, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102 "2004-05-07T23:46:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/41 "2004-05-08T03:35:55Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > If that’s the question, why start a thread with a title that contains unsubstantiated, inflammatory drivel? > > I estimate we’ll have forces in Iraq for at least five, perhaps ten years. If or when individuals commit crimes, those individuals should be punished. No action by a small group of personnel should cause us to abandon Iraq to a bloody civil war, and I don’t think we’ll do that. How about a snuff flick? Hypothetically.,… ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/42 "2004-05-08T03:42:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And this just in… > “…Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and “acting inappropriately with a dead body.” The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys…” Jesus Fucking Christ. Jesus Goddamn Motherfucking Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/43 "2004-05-08T03:45:29Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > Just a general thought here; at what point does what these so called few bad apples did become acts of treason? If you think about it, chances are that they have helped to create several new terrorists, and I shudder to think of how future American POWs will now be treated. If that would be the case You-Know-Who would be the Number One Traitor… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/44 "2004-05-08T03:46:58Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > How about a snuff flick? > > Hypothetically.,… By **Me** : “No action by a small group of personnel should cause us to abandon Iraq to a bloody civil war, and I don’t think we’ll do that.” What part of _No action_ is it that you don’t understand? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/45 "2004-05-08T03:47:48Z")
Well, we’re screwed now. NO ONE in their right mind could possibly defend these acts as isolated incidents. I almost shudder to think about how captured Americans (military and otherwise) will be treated now - but then, I stop and think about how captured Iraqis (and, no doubt, Afghans) are treated now, which is equally horrific. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/46 "2004-05-08T03:52:03Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > By **Me** : “No action by a small group of personnel should cause us to abandon Iraq to a bloody civil war, and I don’t think we’ll do that.” > > What part of _No action_ is it that you don’t understand? How many soldiers have to physically and sexually abuse defenseless and often innocent prisoners before it stops being a “small group of personnel” and starts being a problem? I agree with the not abandoning Iraq to civil war, but clearly the “stay the course” option is getting less valid by the day. At the VERY LEAST we need to hand over prison control to the UN, or France, or someone, ANYONE. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/47 "2004-05-08T03:54:43Z")
The powers that be believe that the end justifies the means. If we can torture info out of someone that stops an attack it’s worth it. Nevermind that a person being tortured will say anything. On a side note… > [@](#): > > Ian Traynor in Zagreb > Thursday June 12, 2003 > The Guardian > > The US is turning up the heat on the countries of the Balkans and eastern Europe to secure war crimes immunity deals for Americans and exemptions from the year-old international criminal court. ] > **[US plays aid card to fix war crimes exemption](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jun/12/warcrimes.iantraynor)** > > The US is turning up the heat on the countries of the Balkans and eastern Europe to secure war crimes immunity deals for Americans and exemptions from the year-old international criminal court. Note the date. That’s around the time the pics have seen were taken. Coincidence? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/48 "2004-05-08T03:54:49Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > How about a snuff flick? > > Hypothetically.,… Upon further reflection, I realize that I may have mistaken your meaning there: Are you asking me out to a movie? If so, will there be dinner first? Somehow, I don’t think either of us will find the conversation particularly rewarding. Is your mom single, or maybe an aunt? We might work something out along those lines… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/49 "2004-05-08T03:55:33Z")
At what point does few bad apples become a fucking orchard? We’re going to have to build a new wing on Leavenworth for all these fucking apples. ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/50 "2004-05-08T03:55:57Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > If that’s the question, why start a thread with a title that contains unsubstantiated, inflammatory drivel? > > I estimate we’ll have forces in Iraq for at least five, perhaps ten years. If or when individuals commit crimes, those individuals should be punished. No action by a small group of personnel should cause us to abandon Iraq to a bloody civil war, and I don’t think we’ll do that. But it’s not “just a few bad apples”! > [@](#): > > **Soldiers Back in U.S. Tell of More Iraqi Abuses** > Thu May 6, 2004 10:40 PM ET > > By Adam Tanner > ANTIOCH, California (Reuters) - Three U.S. military policemen who served at Baghdad’s Abu Ghraib prison said on Thursday they had witnessed unreported cases of prisoner abuse and that the practice against Iraqis was commonplace. > > “It is a common thing to abuse prisoners,” said Sgt. Mike Sindar, 25, a National Guardsman with the 870th Military Police Company based in the San Francisco Bay area. "I saw beatings all the time. > > “A lot of people had so much pent-up anger, so much aggression.” > > U.S. treatment of Iraqi prisoners in Abu Ghraib has stirred wide international condemnation after the publication of photos in recent days showing Americans sexually humiliating prisoners. Six soldiers in Iraq have been charged in the case and President Bush apologized publicly on Thursday. > > Although public attention has focused on the dehumanizing photos, some members of the 870th MP unit say the faces in those images were far from the only ones engaged in cruel behavior. > > “It was not just these six people,” Sindar, who shaves his head and wears a large tattoo on his forearm, told Reuters. “Yes, the beatings happen, yes, all the time.” > > Ramone Leal, 25, said one female soldier in his unit fired off a slingshot into a crowd of prisoners, injuring one. Another group of soldiers knocked a 14-year-old boy to the ground as he arrived at the prison and then twisted his arm. > > “The soldiers were laughing at him,” said Leal, who like the others interviewed for this article has since returned to California. “I saw the other soldiers that would take out their frustrations on the prisoners.” > > Until earlier this year prisoners would arrive at Abu Ghraib with broken bones, suggesting they had been roughed up, he said, but the practice ended in January or February. > > A sergeant in their group was admonished last year after holding down a prisoner for other men to beat, both Leal and Sindar said. They said they saw hooded prisoners with racial taunts written on the hoods such as "camel jockey’ or slogans such as “I tried to kill an American but now I’m in jail.” > > Photos obtained by Reuters show U.S. soldiers looking into body bags of three Iraqi prisoners killed by 870th MP guards during a prison riot in the fall of 2003. One photograph shows a bearded man with much of his bloodied forehead removed by the force of a bullet. > > “We were constantly being attacked, we had terrible support … also being extended all the time, a lot of us had problems with our loved ones suffering from depression,” said MP Dave Bischell. “It all contributes to the psychological component of soldiers when they get stressed.” > > When military investigators were looking into abuses several months ago, they gave U.S. guards a week’s notice before inspecting their possessions, several soldiers said. > > “That shows you how lax they are about discipline. ‘We are going to look for contraband in here, so hint, hint, get rid of the stuff,’ that’s the way things work in the Guard,” Leal said. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/51 "2004-05-08T04:01:19Z")
**Zagada** : The mistreatment of the prisoners is deplorable. I’ve stated that those responsible should be punished. Now that it’s been identified will it be hard to stop? I think not. In all likelihood, the last violation of that type has already been committed. As for turning it over to the French; ever heard of Devil’s Island? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/52 "2004-05-08T04:01:19Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > If so, will there be dinner first? > > 😃 Of course. Complete with fava beans and a nice Chianti… ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/53 "2004-05-08T04:07:30Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > snip… > Now that it’s been identified will it be hard to stop? I think not. In all likelihood, the last violation of that type has already been committed. > > snip… You wish. Were it not for the brave soldier that gave up the pics you still wouldn’t know about it. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/54 "2004-05-08T04:18:04Z")
If I may; Please don’t think the “rest of the world” sees this as the American \*people’s \* fault. We still love you. I have no clue if this is any help, but I’m still saying it. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/55 "2004-05-08T04:19:00Z")
> [@](#): > > When military investigators were looking into abuses several months ago, they gave U.S. guards a week’s notice before inspecting their possessions, several soldiers said. Just enough time to clean their flashlights and scrub the urine stains off the prisoner’s teeth. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/56 "2004-05-08T04:20:28Z")
Will you still love us if the administration that unleashed this upon the Iraqis is returned to power in November? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/57 "2004-05-08T04:21:28Z")
I think the Daily show actually hit the nail on the head, parodying Bush’s statements about how this wasn’t the America he knew: “It’s not our acts which are important, but our abstract principles. Look, just because we DID do something doesn’t mean that we WOULD do it.” ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/58 "2004-05-08T04:22:51Z")
> [@gum](#): > > If I may; Please don’t think the “rest of the world” sees this as the American \*people’s \* fault. We still love you. > > I have no clue if this is any help, but I’m still saying it. Unfortunately, it is. We do not have the luxury of Ugandans who could distance themselves from Idi Amin. We permitted this poltroon to become president, we permitted our elected representatives to lay down on their bellies and with their own hands spread their ass cheeks apart. It says ``` We, the people of the united states.... ``` That’s wjhy we own the whole stinking, steaming pile… ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/59 "2004-05-08T04:25:46Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > Now that it’s been identified will it be hard to stop? I think not. In all likelihood, the last violation of that type has already been committed. I wouldn’t put my money on that. It’ll go underground now. It will be less, certainly, but maybe they just won’t keep taking pictures and video of it, and be sure to “dispose” of the witnesses (victims) > [@](#): > > As for turning it over to the French; ever heard of Devil’s Island? I can’t think of a better country to turn it over to, PR wise. It would make people stop whining in a second. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/60 "2004-05-08T04:26:50Z")
Yes, Well, I’m not happy with my PM either. I didn’t vote for him, though. Don’t be too harsh on yourselfs, please. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102.md?page=4)