# The torture of a twelve year old girl? Time to leave... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2004, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102 "2004-05-07T23:46:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/61 "2004-05-08T04:29:47Z")
before I suffer my frequently endured slide into the pit, may I point out that the spread ass cheeks in question belonged to no doper, unless some doper is an elected official in mufti, in which case, I except from my condemnation any such ass-cheek spreading representative. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/62 "2004-05-08T04:35:06Z")
> [@gum](#): > > Yes, Well, I’m not happy with my PM either. I didn’t vote for him, though. Don’t be too harsh on yourselfs, please. It goes without saying that I didn’t vote for the man from Crawford myself. And I suppose it is some consolation that he had to steal the election as opposed to actually being elected. And yet. The whole Iraq adventure, from its early days in the summer of '02 when Andrew Card came in and said no one goes to market with a new product in August this has been a war crime just like the sudetenland. When you trump up an excuse to invade a country it is a war crime. So the thing is, we have already heard guys say We were (just) folowing orders" But there are orders you are not supposed to follow… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/63 "2004-05-08T04:39:33Z")
[QUOTE=Zagadka] I wouldn’t put my money on that. It’ll go underground now. It will be less, certainly, but maybe they just won’t keep taking pictures and video of it, and be sure to “dispose” of the witnesses (victims) [QUOTE] I just got a bone deep conviction that the pix and videos were an integral part of the “process” and not just a perverted trophy taking. I think it was like "check it out habib-not only did I shove my flashlight up your ass, but I am posting a picture of it on the internet where the whole world will see it… ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/64 "2004-05-08T04:42:00Z")
> [@gum](#): > > If I may; Please don’t think the “rest of the world” sees this as the American \*people’s \* fault. We still love you. Honorable sentiment on your part, but I’ll be damned if it’s the way I feel. I mean, I know it’s not the fault of myself or anyone I know, but god _DAMN_… it’s like I awoke to find my right hand up and strangling somebody. Maybe that’s the scariest bit of all. There but for the grace of (a metaphorical) God, I can’t help but wonder, go I? Is it possible that these monstrosities were done by people who left the States as, well, people? Is this what war does? I don’t know what’s harder to accept: that normal people could be warped to the point of such malignity, or that people could be capable of such things to begin with. Either way, I got the shivers. And it ain’t cold in Tallahassee. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/65 "2004-05-08T04:45:54Z")
[tinfoil?] The photographic evidence makes _everyone_ pictured potential targets for blackmail. [/tinfoil] ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/66 "2004-05-08T04:48:49Z")
It’s not systematic. Hmmmmm. One part of the prison becomes a special detention for “hard cases.” Who chose the prisoners? Who chose the marines? The specific humiliations used were very carefully targeted to seem less offensive to non Islamic, non Arab eyes, and quite specifically horrifying (worse than death or beatings) to Islamic Arabs. Is this the sort of premeditated psychology usually associated with Marine Grunts? You can believe it if you want. But it smells like the CIA to me. I am sure the actual agents were “civilian contractors” or some such plausibly deniable villains. Not systematic? They even planned the exit strategy if they got caught!! How systematic does it have to get? Who are we trying to delude? Ourselves? No thanks. George W. Bush. He is in charge. Didn’t Milosovich say “I didn’t know?” Have we decided that just telling your Intelligence leaders to make sure I don’t know makes anything acceptable? End this war now. Tris ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/67 "2004-05-08T05:06:42Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > The specific humiliations used were very carefully targeted to seem less offensive to non Islamic, non Arab eyes, and quite specifically horrifying (worse than death or beatings) to Islamic Arabs. While it may be the case that these “specific humiliations” do “seem less offensive to non Islamic, non Arab eyes, and quite specifically horrifying … to Islamic Arabs,” what do you base the case for this being necessarily(?) " very carefully targeted"? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/68 "2004-05-08T05:07:01Z")
**gum** , I too appreciate your support. Please don’t see **alaric** ’s statement that we, as a people, are responsible for this as us being too hard on ourselves. It’s more like one of the realizations a parent makes before cleaning up a mess his child made. “George shouldn’t have crashed the family car, but if I had spoken up louder my wife wouldn’t have let him take it when he had been drinking. (sigh) I guess I better bail him out of jail, but if he thinks he’s going to drive any time soon…” It is an understanding that we, the electorate of the United States, are responsible for our current government being in place and driving drunkenly all over the world. Looking over [your Constitution](http://www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/nl00000_.html) (a guy can find ANYTHING on the internet!) I see it lacks an inspirational preamble and jumps right into the boring rights and processes\*. That is too bad since our own [Preamble](http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/preamble.htm) is the best part of an otherwise dry document and is the only part of the American Constitution that was [chewed on by a bad Canadian actor](http://www.jgkeegan.com/ed/) and that [many people can sing.](http://www.postdiluvian.org/~gilly/Schoolhouse_Rock/HTML/history/preamble.html) - - Adding of course the whole succession thing that every country in Europe should have written down fifteen-bleeping-hundred years ago so they could’ve missed a bunch of stupid and bloody wars ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/69 "2004-05-08T05:09:35Z")
I’m honestly a little taken aback that people are surprised about this. Of course this sort of shit happens. It has nothing to do with your nationality, or the country you were born in, or the fact that you are on the ‘good side’. Disgusting, brutal, inhumane shit like this happens in wars. It happens to people on both sides, nobody is immune. This doesn’t reflect on the average American, IMO. It reflects on humanity, the brutality of war, the mental gymnastics some people can do to enable them to carry out this shit. Don’t try to explain away a few ‘bad apples’ while saying everything else is fine and it will not happen again. It will. Insist that next time, ALL options are explored before resorting to warfare. Because this sort of shit happens in wars, and is unavoidable. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/70 "2004-05-08T05:10:16Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > [tinfoil?] > The photographic evidence makes _everyone_ pictured potential targets for blackmail. > [/tinfoil] I think that’s what I was tryibng to say, but did you mean the perps or the victimns? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/71 "2004-05-08T05:12:04Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > I think that’s what I was tryibng to say, but did you mean the perps or the victimns? nevermind. you said everyone… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/72 "2004-05-08T05:17:34Z")
jesus, this story is moving fast [http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/World/Iraq\_abuse\_death\_040507-1.html](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/World/Iraq_abuse_death_040507-1.html) the photographs show a 52-year-old former Baath Party official, Nadem Sadoon Hatab, who died at the detention center last June after a three-day period in which he was allegedly subjected to beatings and karate kicks to the chest and left to die naked in his own feces. well, this guy, in any case, was not qbout to answer any questions on account of the pictures… ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/73 "2004-05-08T05:26:48Z")
> [@Essured](#): > > I’m honestly a little taken aback that people are surprised about this. > > Of course this sort of shit happens. Actually, I find this situation very encouraging. 30 years ago (say, during 'Nam) this sort of thing wouldn’t be a big scandal. It points to now, we are progressing. What was acceptable is no longer kosher. Ever warfare CAN be civilized. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/74 "2004-05-08T06:10:50Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > While it may be the case that these “specific humiliations” do “seem less offensive to non Islamic, non Arab eyes, and quite specifically horrifying … to Islamic Arabs,” what do you base the case for this being necessarily(?) " very carefully targeted"? Because I find it unlikely to be a coincidence. Tris ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/75 "2004-05-08T06:24:38Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > Because I find it unlikely to be a coincidence. > > Tris Kind of like [William Paley](http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/p/pd-modeng/pd-modeng-idx?type=HTML&rgn=TEI.2&byte=53049319)’s watchmaker analogy proving creationism? ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/76 "2004-05-08T06:33:16Z")
I agree with **Essured** and **Tris** on all points: war does these things to people, it was ordered by the intelligence folks, and I’m quite certain it goes a lot higher than the few grunts who’ve been charged so far. **SimonX** , that wing was under the charge of the intelligence folks, and off limits, if you can believe it, to the CO of the prison, Karpinski, or so she claims anyway. I find it highly likely that it was policy because if you look at the photos, there’s at least one that shows a corridor full of soldiers, where Iraqis are stacked up in the middle of the corridor and everyone else is just going about their business like nothing unusual is happening. That means _everyone_ was in on it, because no way it would have been this blatant otherwise. They had no fear of getting caught by anyone - which, BTW, goes a long way towards explaining why they took pictures. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/77 "2004-05-08T07:23:59Z")
I don’t know what creeps me out more, the revelations coming that even more atrocities were committed in the name of the United States in those prisons, or the prediction that the Bush-apologizing nutjobs will use unspeakably lame excuses like “Hey, it’s not so bad, we’re not throwing anyone into ovens yet” to dismiss them. Thanks to Bushco, we Americans are now stuck in a _really_ deep hole. I don’t know how we’re going to get out, but I’ll bet it starts with throwing this Administration out on its ass… ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/78 "2004-05-08T07:46:48Z")
System behind the torture? > [@](#): > > The techniques devised in the system, called R2I - resistance to interrogation - match the crude exploitation and abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad. > > One former British special forces officer who returned last week from Iraq, said: “It was clear from discussions with US private contractors in Iraq that the prison guards were using R2I techniques, but they didn’t know what they were doing.” [UK forces taught torture methods](http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1212199,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/79 "2004-05-08T08:13:18Z")
Regarding the issue of whether or not the abuses were “isolated,” as opposed to “systematic,” there’s a disturbing article in today’s [Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1212197,00.html). A few excerpts: > [@](#): > > \*\*The sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison was not an invention of maverick guards, but part of a system of ill-treatment and degradation used by special forces soldiers that is now being disseminated among ordinary troops and contractors who do not know what they are doing, according to British military sources. > > The techniques devised in the system, called R2I - resistance to interrogation - match the crude exploitation and abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad. > > One former British special forces officer who returned last week from Iraq, said: “It was clear from discussions with US private contractors in Iraq that the prison guards were using R2I techniques, but they didn’t know what they were doing.” > > He said British and US military intelligence soldiers were trained in these techniques, which were taught at the joint services interrogation centre in Ashford, Kent, now transferred to the former US base at Chicksands. > > Using sexual jibes and degradation, along with stripping naked, is one of the methods taught on both sides of the Atlantic under the slogan “prolong the shock of capture”, he said. > > Female guards were used to taunt male prisoners sexually and at British training sessions when female candidates were undergoing resistance training they would be subject to lesbian jibes….\*\* With R2I techniques, apparently, Special Forces soldiers are themselves exposed to these sorts of abuses for training purposes. However, even under training conditions the techniques can be experienced as severely distressing: > [@](#): > > **When the interrogation techniques are used on British soldiers for training purposes, they are subject to a strict 48-hour time limit, and a supervisor and a psychologist are always present. It is recognised that in inexperienced hands, prisoners can be plunged into psychosis.** The article goes on to note: > [@](#): > > \*\*“The crucial difference from Iraq is that frontline soldiers who are made to experience R2I techniques themselves develop empathy. They realise the suffering they are causing. But people who haven’t undergone this don’t realise what they are doing to people. It’s a shambles in Iraq”. > > The British former officer said the dissemination of R2I techniques inside Iraq was all the more dangerous because of the general mood among American troops. > > “_The feeling among US soldiers I’ve spoken to in the last week is also that ‘the gloves are off’. Many of them still think they are dealing with people responsible for 9/11_”.\*\* Finally, with regard to the R2I style itself: > [@](#): > > \*\*The spectrum of R2I techniques also includes keeping prisoners naked most of the time. This is what the Abu Ghraib photographs show, along with inmates being forced to crawl on a leash; forced to masturbate in front of a female soldier; mimic oral sex with other male prisoners; and form piles of naked, hooded men. > > The full battery of methods includes hooding, sleep deprivation, time disorientation and depriving prisoners not only of dignity, but of fundamental human needs, such as warmth, water and food.\*\* It seems probable to me that these techniques were implemented in Iraq (and possibly elsewhere), and, under conditions of isolation, extreme stress, and lack of expertise, they simply spiraled out of control. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/80 "2004-05-08T08:25:00Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > On a side note… > > > [@](#): > > > > Ian Traynor in Zagreb > > Thursday June 12, 2003 > > The Guardian > > > > The US is turning up the heat on the countries of the Balkans and eastern Europe to secure war crimes immunity deals for Americans and exemptions from the year-old international criminal court. > > [US plays aid card to fix war crimes exemption | World news | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/yugo/article/0,2763,975476,00.html) > Note the date. That’s around the time the pics have seen were taken. > > Coincidence? For my money, yes, it is a coincidence. Remember, it was a reluctance to allow Americans to be tried before it that drove American resistance to the creation of a permanent war crimes tribunal, way back during the Clinton years. No need to reinforce the tinfoil over this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102.md?page=5)