# The torture of a twelve year old girl? Time to leave... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2004, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102 "2004-05-07T23:46:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/81 "2004-05-08T12:41:45Z")
**dropzone** You read our constitution? :eek: Believe me, not everything or every person in the Netherlands is perfect. As to soldiers acting horribly: I bet I can find proof of _every_ ‘civilized’ army doing the same thing, [France and Algeria comes to mind] including the pathetic Dutch army. [what pisses me off, though, is Bin Laden willing to pay HALF of the normal price of gold, for a dead Dutch soldier. I feel insulted. 😃] Thank you for your post. It gets things a little more in perspective. Gotta love Captain Kirk doing the preamble. hehehe. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/82 "2004-05-08T15:10:16Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Actually, I find this situation very encouraging. > > … we are progressing. What was acceptable is no longer kosher. Ever warfare CAN be civilized. No, No, No, - this was the greatest of all the many lies that were told to lead us sheep-like into this stupid war. “war can be civilized, precise, and surgical. Look, Shock and Awe - it’s just a pretty firework display. Look at the nice pictures from the smart bombs - it’s just a video game” Estimates vary but it’s certain that more civilians have died - men, women, children, babies - often screaming in agony - than died on 9/11. We condemn Arab news stations for showing this suffering - but just because US stations haven’t shown it, doesn’t mean it isn’t there. We need things like the Geneva convention (itself one of the causalities of recent US policy). But war itself can never be civilized ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/83 "2004-05-08T15:31:32Z")
**rjung** : > [@](#): > > I don’t know what creeps me out more, the revelations coming that even more atrocities were committed in the name of the United States in those prisons, or the prediction that the Bush-apologizing nutjobs will use unspeakably lame excuses like “Hey, it’s not so bad, we’re not throwing anyone into ovens yet” to dismiss them. Well, **I** know. And it’s definitely the latter. And that they will use that as a yardstick against which to measure all that goes down in Iraq and Afghanistan. And frankly, I could hear Rumsfeld asking, “Is anyone being thrown into ovens? Good heavens, no!” until yesterday when I listened to him sounding as chastened as he’s ever likely to be. Although, I have a c-note on Jonah Goldberg using it within the next three months. And just to reiterate, **gum** , a helluva lot of US citizens are beating themselves up. And I’m not sure that they shouldn’t be. And I refuse to believe that war can ever be civilized. That’s why it should always be the last option. > [@](#): > > Thanks to Bushco, we Americans are now stuck in a _really_ deep hole. I don’t know how we’re going to get out, but I’ll bet it starts with throwing this Administration out on its ass… I’ll drink to that. 'Samatter of fact, first round’s on me. Waste ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/84 "2004-05-08T15:32:36Z")
And a thousand pardons to all whose posts I repeated. Gotta learn to preview. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/85 "2004-05-08T15:59:21Z")
I dread. An American, sooner or later, will be captured, and subjected to wretched abuse, publicly displayed. The Troglodyte Right will scream itself hoarse. “Never mind how we got into this, we’re in it and we must win at any price! Any opposition to the War must now be considered treasonous, and all right thinking Americans must solidly support Our Leader!” And it’ll work, it always does. When has it ever failed? I dread. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/86 "2004-05-08T16:14:15Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The Troglodyte Right will scream itself hoarse. “Never mind how we got into this, we’re in it and we must win at any price! Any opposition to the War must now be considered treasonous, and all right thinking Americans must solidly support Our Leader!” I’ve ben hearing this for while now. They’re not hoarse yet? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/87 "2004-05-08T17:48:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I dread. An American, sooner or later, will be captured, and subjected to wretched abuse, publicly displayed. The Troglodyte Right will scream itself hoarse. “Never mind how we got into this, we’re in it and we must win at any price! Any opposition to the War must now be considered treasonous, and all right thinking Americans must solidly support Our Leader!” And it’ll work, it always does. When has it ever failed? > > . This is a fairly tired quote, but it always gives me a little chill anyway. “Of course the people don’t want war. But after all, it’s the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it’s a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.” – Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/88 "2004-05-08T17:57:02Z")
> [@Essured](#): > > I’m honestly a little taken aback that people are surprised about this. > > Of course this sort of shit happens. It has nothing to do with your nationality, or the country you were born in, or the fact that you are on the ‘good side’. Disgusting, brutal, inhumane shit like this happens in wars. It happens to people on both sides, nobody is immune. Except, except, except … This isn’t just a regrettable side result of a war fought for larger purposes, this was the one real reason for the war to be fought at all. The one rationale for this war that everyone agreed was reality-based, the one that everyone agreed would be a good thing, even if the costs were still debatable, was to _stop this kind of shit from happening_. The one thing whose stoppage we could agree would be a beneficial result is the one thing we’re now known for doing _ourselves_. Sure, that’s largely unfair, but that perception is reality nonetheless and we’d better deal with it face-on. And we can’t just dismiss it as a small aberration by few low-ranking staff under too much stress, as in the “normal warfare” incidents you’re thinking of. Everything we know already, and what’s been hinted we’ll soon know more of, says it’s on a wide scale, and an inevitable result of how the war was “planned” and “managed” all the way from the top. It stems from the outsourcing of core military functions to unsupervised civilians, a Washington decision. It stems from the removal of control of prisons from the military chain of command, a Washington decision. It stems from the, let’s say, “result-oriented” interrogation process, a Washington decision. It stems from indiscrimination in the roundup and custody process, locking up the innocent on the same basis as the militant, without charges or recourse, a Washington decision. It stems from an active indifference to the situation at the highest levels (Has Rumsfeld read Taguba’s report _yet_? Why did Bush learn about it from TV?) There’s an attempt to scapegoat Lynndie Englund for all of this, a Washington decision, but that will surely backfire too as more comes out. No, friend, this doesn’t look like something that happened despite our government, it looks like something that our government _did_, more or less intentionally. **gum** , it isn’t hard to find an example if you want to. Srebrenica comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/89 "2004-05-08T18:14:29Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Except, except, except … This isn’t just a regrettable side result of a war fought for larger purposes, this was the one real reason for the war to be fought at all. > It stems from the removal of control of prisons from the military chain of command, a Washington decision. It stems from the, let’s say, “result-oriented” interrogation process, a Washington decision. It stems from indiscrimination in the roundup and custody process, locking up the innocent on the same basis as the militant, without charges or recourse, a Washington decision. It stems from an active indifference to the situation at the highest levels (Has Rumsfeld read Taguba’s report _yet_? Why did Bush learn about it from TV?) hat happened despite our government, it looks like something that our government _did_, more or less intentionally. > **gum** , it isn’t hard to find an example if you want to. Srebrenica comes to mind. Setting aside, for the moment, the whole moral and human horror, and the horrors doubtless to come, how can this man lurch from disaster to disaster without someone tapping him on the shoulder whose advice he will take? By now so many people have predicted so many catastrophic mistakes that he has cheerfully charged into… What the fuck will it take for him to scratch his cornpone ass and smell the coffee? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/90 "2004-05-08T19:27:13Z")
Something I heard in passing, haven’t found the source, or even if there is one, so wondering if anybody else heard this… That the tormenting soldiers were under the “direction” of intelligence-type spooky folks. That the purpose of the excercise was to gather intelligence. That the point of that intelligence was the location of the hidden weapons of mass destruction, which simply _have_ to be there, just cunningly concealed by die-hard dead ender Baathists… Its so ghastly I’m not even sure I heard it, so I am not putting it up for evidence. Did anyone else? Am I suffering from Bushanoia? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/91 "2004-05-08T20:24:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Something I heard in passing, haven’t found the source, or even if there is one, so wondering if anybody else heard this… > > That the tormenting soldiers were under the “direction” of intelligence-type spooky folks. That the purpose of the excercise was to gather intelligence. That the point of that intelligence was the location of the hidden weapons of mass destruction, which simply _have_ to be there, just cunningly concealed by die-hard dead ender Baathists… > > Its so ghastly I’m not even sure I heard it, so I am not putting it up for evidence. Did anyone else? Am I suffering from Bushanoia? sorry. the story comes from some of the mps. I think its good. My best recollection is it came in one of the talking head shows–maybe sy hersh on charlie rose, I don’t know, it’s all one big ball of sleaze by now… ---
**Author:** ![Starguard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Starguard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starguard)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/92 "2004-05-08T20:36:11Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > This is not a rant. > > This is an appeal for thoughtful analysis on the part of those who would have us "stay the course ", (including JFK, by the way) > > Please, let us not quibble abouth the factual accuracy of the charge below–assume (hypothetically, if you must) that it is true. > "The US military has said it will investigate claims by a former inmate of Abu Ghraib prison that a girl as young as 12 was stripped and beaten by military personnel. > [http://www.itv.com/news/623337.html](http://www.itv.com/news/623337.html) > > Like Savak, (to whom we allegedly taught the technique) we are torturing children to force relatives to talk. > > I’ll bet it works. It would work on me. I brought this to the attention of a friend of mines that fought in Viet Nam. He stated that this is the same type of media (bullsh\*t) that painted so many Vietnam Vets as being “Baby-Killers” when they came home from the war. He went on to tell me about how quickly the media will bring to the general public information about how all of our own servicemen are “mistreating” others, but hardly ever do you hear about how our own people are being treated by theirs. With his permission, I will quote the following statements from him: > [@](#): > > " When I was in Nam, the NVA (North Vietnamese) would use their own children, ofter toddlers" as suicide bombers. They would take some kid, maybe 4 or 5 years old and tell him/her “Hey, see that group of soldiers coming down the road? Take this (a hand grenade) and give it to the one walking right in the middle and pull this pin out, and when you get back I’ll give you some candy” > > Little kid is too young to know any better, so the kid goes and does what he’s told. These American G.I.'s would be walking through some village when this little girl comes running out. Everyone would see this kid and think “Aww look at that cute little girl” Toddler would run up to them smiling and as soon as they reach out to pick her up, she’s manuver to the guy right in the middle of their squad, pull out this genade and yank the pin out. Before these soldiers could react, the grenade blows up and wipes out over 1/2 of his squad. The NVA kept doing this for so long that our Generals started issuing orders to “Search and Destroy” meaning that anyone or anything that can’t IMMEDIATELY be identified as friendly were to be killed right there on the spot, regardless of age or gender. > > Later on, while on patrol, they would come up on some small village by the river. Sometimes Fighter Jets would fly past very low. When the people living in these village huts hear these jets, they’d all start to panic thnking that they are about to start dropping bombs. They’d all come runnig out of these huts right toward these American soldiers. These Soldiers have no idea of either who these people are or what they’re about to do, so for their own safety, they allow their insticts for survival take over and opened fire on everyone that they could not recognise, women, children and all ☹ > > He went on to tell me about how the NVA would catch Marines or Green Berets in the jungle and what they’d do to them. He says that the NVA would nail their hand up to a tree, slut their throats, stab them in throat and cut then dwon clean to their genitals completely disemboweling them. They would cut their penis and scrotum off and stick it in their mouths and would leave them there hanging from this tree as a warning to any amarican service man of what would happen to them if they stayed in the area. Ours in return would behead any one of their that we found and stick it up on a bamboo pole as a warning to them of what would happen to them if **they** didn’t leave. > > The american media is what caused the US to loe the Vietman War. I blame it totally. The media never shows the American public anything other that what **we** did over there in order to survive and everyone says that we were so wrong for it Those damn war corespondants never show anyone what those \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\* were diong to us. They kill us, they torture us, no one cares. We do the same to them, and we’re all killers. I tell you. let the average person, sitting at home watching this all on television get up off his butt and go over there and lets see what he does. Let him live each day praying to stay alive with those \*\*\*\*\* pointing a gun down their throat everyday. Lets see them do any better. Its easy to complain about what others do when you’re not there to see the whole picture for youself…That’s why I hare the media". I feel sorry for those guys over there…I’ve been there myself, only in another time (Danang 66-67) As for myself…I didn’t say another word ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Starguard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Starguard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starguard)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/93 "2004-05-08T20:40:07Z")
Sorry for all the typo’s :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/94 "2004-05-08T21:01:40Z")
> [@Starguard](#): > > As for myself…I didn’t say another word ☹ Actually, the NVA practice of using children as suicide bombers was well known at the time of the Vietnam War. Could that information have been distributed by … the media? Why yes, I believe it was. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/95 "2004-05-08T21:06:18Z")
And one certainly can’t claim that nothing is being reported on enemy activities during the current conflict. With the constant refrain of ‘3 US soldiers were killed by a roadside bomb today in Iraq…’ stories it’s not like the media is ignoring it. In short, that old vet is full of shit. He’s remembering what he WANTS to remember. And it’s not like the ‘media’ is one monolithic entity. Unless you’re big on the whole tinfoil hat thing it strains credulity to believe that all the media all covers items all the same way out of some choice. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/96 "2004-05-08T21:20:38Z")
For some reason, I felt I should add this: [CACI’s Job Database](http://cacirecruiting.caci.com/jobpostings.nsf/949b67190f4be56a85256ccc005ce91c/d51364bfbe6f633185256e5f0074bbb3?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,interrogator) \*\*Interrogator/Intel Analyst Team Lead Asst. BAGHDAD, Iraq \*\* (Requisition #BZSG308) Clearance: TS Description: Assists the interrogation support program team lead to increase the effectiveness of dealing with Detainees, Persons of Interest, and Prisoners of War (POWs) that are in the custody of US/Coalition Forces in the CJTF 7 AOR, in terms of screening, interrogation, and debriefing of persons of intelligence value. [FONT=Times New Roman]Under minimal supervision, will assist the team lead in managing a multifaceted interrogation support cell consisting of database entry/intelligence research clerks, screeners, tactical/strategic interrogators, and intelligence analyst.[/FONT] ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/97 "2004-05-08T21:29:50Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > For some reason, I felt I should add this: > [CACI’s Job Database](http://cacirecruiting.caci.com/jobpostings.nsf/949b67190f4be56a85256ccc005ce91c/d51364bfbe6f633185256e5f0074bbb3?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,interrogator) > > \*\*Interrogator/Intel Analyst Team Lead Asst. > BAGHDAD, Iraq \*\* > > (Requisition #BZSG308) > Clearance: TS > Description: > Assists the interrogation support program team lead to increase the effectiveness of dealing with Detainees, Persons of Interest, and Prisoners of War (POWs) that are in the custody of US/Coalition Forces in the CJTF 7 AOR, in terms of screening, interrogation, and debriefing of persons of intelligence value. [FONT=Times New Roman]Under minimal supervision, will assist the team lead in managing a multifaceted interrogation support cell consisting of database entry/intelligence research clerks, screeners, tactical/strategic interrogators, and intelligence analyst.[/FONT] Oye como va ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/98 "2004-05-08T21:34:27Z")
**Starguard** : I’m sorry, but that veteran that you are quoting has obviously not been paying any fucking attention to the media reports that have been issuing forth from Iraq. As to whether the media was responsible for Vietnam vets being painted as baby killers, I dunno. But every damned day there is a new media report about how many soldiers have been killed in Iraq (although damned few in Afghanistan; of course, our attention isn’t **supposed** to be focused there, but never mind) and where. And goddamnit, our soldiers **are** mistreating others. Doesn’t matter one iota who anally raped who first, or who made who act like a naked dog at the end of a lead. We’re supposed to be the good guys. And from what I’ve seen and what I’m told is coming, we’re sure as shit not acting like it. And this: > [@](#): > > The american media is what caused the US to loe the Vietman War. Is absolute crap. And if you feel the need to tell this veteran of your acquaintance that “someone” said it, feel free to use my SN. Waste ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/99 "2004-05-08T21:46:47Z")
By **Zagadka** , speaking of the French: “I can’t think of a better country to turn it(the prison) over to, PR wise. It would make people stop whining in a second.” The CIA would probably be glad to go along with you on that one. Saddam proved that they can be bribed to volate international agreements and they were willing to scam the oil for food program. Should be relatively easy to slip 'em a few bucks to get 'em to turn their heads inside a prison. Just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/100 "2004-05-08T22:08:55Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > Saddam proved that they can be bribed to volate international agreements and they were willing to scam the oil for food program. Has this been proved yet? Last I heard, certain mambers of the IGC had yet to let anyone else see the documents that these charges are based on. Have they been released yet? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102.md?page=6)