# The torture of a twelve year old girl? Time to leave... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2004, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102 "2004-05-07T23:46:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/161 "2004-05-10T03:39:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And remember- the guys on which this was done were hard-core violent criminals, who were rapsists themselves. They deserve a little 'tough love" (not to the extent done, of course, but I could condone a _bit_ of humiliation, esp to dudes who were quoted as saying “they made us feel like women- which is the worst thing you could do” :rolleyes: " In other word, if all they had done was strip them and have a female soldier come in and point at their tiny (male chavinist & rapist) peni & laugh- I could condone that. (I wouldn’t authorize that, mind you, but…) Preach it, brother. I can’t _wait_ until that video of the soldiers fucking the 14-year-old boys gets released. That’ll teach those fucking terrorists who’s boss, won’t it? ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/162 "2004-05-10T03:47:57Z")
**John Carter** , a quote from Senator Lindsey Graham, R-SC, on _Meet the Press_ this morning (apologies if this has been quoted already in this thread): > [@](#): > > This is not just about humiliation, Tim. The allegations in this report involve rape and murder. Please, don’t leave this whole scenario thinking that this is just about a humiliating experience. This is about system failure. This is about felony offenses. Transcript here: [http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4938258/](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4938258/) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/163 "2004-05-10T04:19:49Z")
Lindsey, ol’ pal, at least it isn’t about a blowjob, or you’d have to actually do something about it, right? The facts are what they are, and we’ll find out for ourselves pretty soon. If his outrage is genuine, that’s fine. But the former impeachment manager isn’t entitled to any assumptions about his motivations, unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/164 "2004-05-10T06:13:08Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > Whence comes this thought, **SimonX**? _“We’ve been advised to keep an open mind to the possibility that even worse than a “12 yo girl being tortured & raped” has happened.”_ > If some US official stated: " Worse things are coming than the rape and torture of that 12 year-old girl", would you mind providing a cite? Maybe you didn’t notice, but I previously provided citations. Please note: United Sates Senator Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., "said he wants to ‘prepare the public: Apparently the worst is yet to come potentially in terms of disturbing _events_.’” Sen graham also said; [“The American public needs to understand we’re talking about \*rape and murder \* here.”](http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~6439~2135248,00.html) IMHO, rape and murder is worse than rape and torure. Of course, rape, torture _and_ murder would be even worse than the previous combinations. YMMV. Second, I cited Rumsfeld’s comments about the blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane physical violence towards prisoners- "It’s going to get a good deal more terrible…” twice. Third, I provided a citation for “U.S. military officials” saying that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and “acting inappropriately with a dead body.” [And that] …there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys. IMHO, the implied minimum of _at least_ two murders, three rapes, one severe beating, and “inappropriate” acts with a dead body combine for something worse than “12 yo girl being tortured & raped.” YMOMV. So here’s another “US official” who stated that some thing even worse than a “12 yo girl being tortured & raped” has happened. In short, I’m not really sure of what you want as you’ve asked for what you’ve already been given. > [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > We’ve been advised of no such thing. We’ve been advised that there are possibly worse things to come than the pictures already released. These things were characterized as “events.” Events that’re more disturbing that what’s come out so far. Senator Graham described these “events” with the words “rape and murder.” And, as previously noted, IMHO, rape and murder is worse than rape and torure. Of course, rape, torture _and_ murder would be even worse than the previous combinations. YMMV. > [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > The 12 year-old girl thing is totally unsubstantiated and is not referenced by any official source that I know of. While I might quibble about how you qualify the relative level of substantiation, I don’t doubt that you’re unaware of the incident being “referenced by any official source.” Yet, even this presents no discernable problem to assuming, hypothetically, _ftsoa_, that these charges are true. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/165 "2004-05-10T06:44:53Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > You and **rjung** seem to have very little pop-culture understanding. _Liver_ is the appropriate meat to serve with fava beans and chianti. Sorry, but movies with cannibals just don’t turn my crank. If I wanted stomach-churning nausea, I’d listen to Limbaugh. And I see **Brutus** and **John Carter of Mars** are still spinning their wheels with the whole “Evil UN corruption ruined the Iraqi food-for-oil program” allegations. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/166 "2004-05-10T07:07:18Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Preach it, brother. I can’t _wait_ until that video of the soldiers fucking the 14-year-old boys gets released. That’ll teach those fucking terrorists who’s boss, won’t it? What damn video are you talking about? The one made by the same porn company that made those “soldiers doing a gang rape” vid? Look, there could still be worse. But we could make up hypotheticals all the time: “what if GWB was actually a space alien from “To Serve Humanity” and he was just fattening us up for the cattle drive?” :rolleyes: When we see the actual evidence (and not 3rd rate porn, OK? :rolleyes: ) then we can make some informed decisions. Please note that I was against the Invasion from the get-go (OK, I did admit that I’d accept it if we had UN approval). But just pulling out of Iraq without setting up some infrastructure and quashing some of the worst violence- is just plain foolish. So- NO there is NOTHING where’d I agree to “Does not this rise to a level of atrocity where you will say, we must leave, all of us, yesterday, with no reservations and no excuses?” as our Op asked. But I would want lots & lots of trials & convictions, including some at the highest levels. Maybe we’d have to not only get Rumsfield to resign, but we’d have to have him in Jail. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/167 "2004-05-10T07:38:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What damn video are you talking about? Most likely the one referred to several times in this thread already: Reposting=SimonX Here’re two attempts at links to cached versions of the article: \*\*[Rumsfeld apologizes to abused Iraqis](http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:9qQ1ZaQrt0IJ:msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/+%22personnel,+showing+Iraqi+guards+raping+young+boys%22&hl=en) Defense secretary warns that worse photos, videos are yet to come \*\* _NBC, MSNBC and news services Updated: 07:00 PM PT May07, 2004_ But Rumsfeld warned the committee that the worst was yet to come. He said he had looked at the full array of unedited photographs of the situation at Abu Ghraib for the first time Thursday night and found them “hard to believe.” “There are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he said. “… It’s going to get a good deal more terrible, I’m afraid.” Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and “acting inappropriately with a dead body.” The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys. _© 2004 [MSNBC.com](http://MSNBC.com)_ _[alternate linkage](http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:9qQ1ZaQrt0IJ:msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/+%22personnel,+showing+Iraqi+guards+raping+young+boys%22&hl=en)_ ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/168 "2004-05-10T07:42:30Z")
Things are getting bad for Rummy and Bush when “The Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Times”, call for Rummy’s resignation (supposed to be in Monday’s editorial). > [@](#): > > [CBSNews.com](http://CBSNews.com) > **‘On The Edge’ In Iraq** > May 9, 2004 > > A senior general and a Republican senator say the United States could lose in Iraq, and are pointing the finger at Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. > > “I think we are right on the edge in Iraq right now,” says Sen. Chuck Hagel. > > Rumsfeld and his staff didn’t listen to military planners, and now the United States is “in a mess,” the Nebraska Republican said on CBS News’ Face The Nation. > > “What is our policy? What are we doing? What is the possibility of us winning? That’s all still in question,” said Hagel, a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. “I think it’s still in question whether Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld and, quite frankly, General [Richard] Myers, [the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff,] can command the respect and the trust and the confidence of the military of the American people to lead this country.” > > A senior general at the Pentagon tells the Washington Post he believes the United States is on the path to defeat – and Rumsfeld and his advisers are to blame. The Post reports great anger is building at Rumsfeld and his top advisers among career Army officers. > > “The current OSD [Office of the Secretary of Defense] refused to listen or adhere to military advice," the general said on the condition his name not be used, in part out of fear of punishment. “It is doubtful we can go on much longer like this,” he added. “The American people may not stand for it - and they should not.” > > The top U.S. commander in the war told the Post that the United States is winning tactically. However, Army Gen. John Abizaid stopped short of projecting an overall victory. Rather, he said, “strategically, I think there are opportunities.” > > The Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Times, the civilian-owned trade papers of the military sold at every U.S. military installation, accuse Rumsfeld and Myers of professional negligence in their handling of Iraqi detainees in a new editorial. “Accountability here is essential - even if that means relieving top leaders from duty in a time of war.” > > [Full article](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/09/iraq/printable616398.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/169 "2004-05-10T07:44:18Z")
Jesus, the news reporters are trying and failing to contain their excitement about the prospect of getting new torture pictures and footage. Ewwwwww… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/170 "2004-05-10T07:47:49Z")
I think I get where you’re coming from, **Doc** : no matter how bad we’ve screwed up, we’ve got to make good, and this bad shit only underlines our responsibility. And I can understand that. On the other hand, I have to have an eye out for the position that says our very presence renders progress impossible, that as long as the Iraqi people see us as an occupying force, they cannot see _anyone_ as a liberating force. If we are lucky enough to get substantial foreign help (and if it takes GeeDubya fellating Kofi Annan in Macy’s window at high noon to get it, so be it…) that could be a good thing, if it is seen as “them in, us out”. But if we remain while bringing in more “back up”, they are likely to see the UN (or whomsoever) as being merely co-conspirators. Frankly, at this point, I see very little chance that _we_ can make any progress on the “hearts and minds” front. Maybe someone else can. The nightmare scenario I am currently dreading is a retaliatory atrocity committed by Iraqis on our people, which would inflame the passions for vengeance amongst our people, who are not given to cheek-turning. It would be very tempting for the Bushiviks to use such passion to thier own political ends, and I very much doubt they have the moral courage to refuse such an opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/171 "2004-05-10T08:03:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Frankly, at this point, I see very little chance that we can make any progress on the “hearts and minds” front. Maybe someone else can. Maybe if America gets a “re-branding” with a new President… Seriously though: a lot of the anti-American hatred is really anti-Bush hatred. With a new President, and a feeling of repudiating past mistakes, we might well have a chance to gain back a bit of our image. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/172 "2004-05-10T11:12:02Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Preach it, brother. I can’t _wait_ until that video of the soldiers fucking the 14-year-old boys gets released. That’ll teach those fucking terrorists who’s boss, won’t it? I assume that if they actually show 14 y.o. being raped, they _won’t_ be released, for obvious reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/173 "2004-05-10T13:20:58Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Jesus, the news reporters are trying and failing to contain their excitement about the prospect of getting new torture pictures and footage. Ewwwwww… This seems to be why Rummy and others are issueing these “worse to come” warnings, some journos are apparently offering big bucks to get their grubby hands on any pix. Not so “embedded” now, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/174 "2004-05-10T13:46:50Z")
> [@Capt B. Phart](#): > > This seems to be why Rummy and others are issueing these “worse to come” warnings, some journos are apparently offering big bucks to get their grubby hands on any pix. Not so “embedded” now, eh? C’mon, Capt. Phart, you don’t get away with “blame the messenger” that easily. Granted, the press has failed us on many occasions of late, but going after THESE vids and photos, which are proof of malfeasance by U.S. soldiers and their military and civilian leaders, is one instance of journalists doing their jobs. Sure, the photos are salacious, but I never heard the Repubs getting all worked up at press interest in what was acknowledged by all to be a consensual blowjob, not too long ago. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_B.Phart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Capt\_B.Phart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_B.Phart)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/175 "2004-05-10T14:40:23Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > C’mon, Capt. Phart, you don’t get away with “blame the messenger” that easily. Granted, the press has failed us on many occasions of late, but going after THESE vids and photos, which are proof of malfeasance by U.S. soldiers and their military and civilian leaders, is one instance of journalists doing their jobs. Sure, the photos are salacious, but I never heard the Repubs getting all worked up at press interest in what was acknowledged by all to be a consensual blowjob, not too long ago. I’m not blaming journos for reporting what’s out there - the blame is for those who committed the acts and for those in positions of power who knew about them and did nothing or little to prevent it, despite being told long ago by the Red Cross and others. It took press revelations to get anything done at all - but obviously at a terrible cost in terms of the situation in Iraq. But that doesn’t stop me finding much about the profession distasteful. I can see why we have to have traffic cops; it doesn’t mean I have to love them. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/176 "2004-05-10T14:44:38Z")
By **SimonX** : “Maybe you didn’t notice, but I previously provided citations.” You provided citations. I noticed, and even read them. I _thought_ I was quite clear in asking for a cite specific to the rape and torture of a 12 year-old girl. So far, none has been provided except the one that contains a disclaimer. The rest of the story is that bad stuff is coming. The details are not available to the mortal man, as S & G stated so long ago. My objection here is the use of hyperbole like “12 year-old raped and tortured” when no such thing has been verified. There are enough _interesting_ things going on without resorting to that. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/177 "2004-05-10T14:50:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If we are lucky enough to get substantial foreign help (and if it takes GeeDubya fellating Kofi Annan in Macy’s window at high noon to get it, so be it…) that could be a good thing… Ewwww!!! :eek: _Steelwool!, I have steelwool!, certified industrial strenght, superior grinding, ideal for scrapping asphalst, tank polishing and scrubbing disturbing images from your brain! steelwool, who want´s steelwool!, 5 dollah the roll… I´ve be with you in a second mister… steelwool!_ ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/178 "2004-05-10T15:10:45Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > By **SimonX** : “Maybe you didn’t notice, but I previously provided citations.” > > You provided citations. I noticed, and even read them. I _thought_ I was quite clear in asking for a cite specific to the rape and torture of a 12 year-old girl. So far, none has been provided except the one that contains a disclaimer. > > The rest of the story is that bad stuff is coming. The details are not available to the mortal man, as S & G stated so long ago. > > My objection here is the use of hyperbole like “12 year-old raped and tortured” when no such thing has been verified. There are enough _interesting_ things going on without resorting to that. [Here you go](http://www.itv.com/news/623337.html) > [@](#): > > The US military has said it will investigate claims by a former inmate of Abu Ghraib prison that a girl as young as 12 was stripped and beaten by military personnel. There’s none so blind as those who won’t bother looking for easily available information just so they can hold the party line firm is there. I now sit back confident the usual suspects will attack the source (ooh, shock, horror, an Al Jazeera journalist) and call it unsubstantiated but as far as I’m concerned what we already know and what Rumsfeld himself has hinted is to come makes this bloody credible. And no - it didn’t claim she was raped but I hope no one here, apart from the deranged Iskander, is going to make that their point of defence. Particularly as… > [@](#): > > Colonel Jill Morgenthaler, speaking for central command, told the Guardian: “One contractor was originally included with six soldiers, accused for his treatment of the prisoners, but we had no jurisdiction over him. It was left up to the contractor on how to deal with him.” > > She did not specify the accusation facing the contractor, but according to several sources with detailed knowledge of the case, he raped an Iraqi inmate in his mid-teens. [Rape of teenage boy by contractor (mercenary torturer to us English speakers)](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1206725,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/179 "2004-05-10T15:18:27Z")
Aah - that was the thing that started the thread, forgot about that. Still - I stand by my point. The burden of proof that these things didn’t happen is on those that deny it IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102/180 "2004-05-10T16:17:43Z")
Here’s the Army Times editorial **iamme99** mentioned: [A failure of leadership at the highest levels](http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2903288.php) > [@](#): > > Around the halls of the Pentagon, a term of caustic derision has emerged for the enlisted soldiers at the heart of the furor over the Abu Ghraib prison scandal: the six morons who lost the war. > … > But the folks in the Pentagon are talking about the wrong morons. > … > This was not just a failure of leadership at the local command level. This was a failure that ran straight to the top. Accountability here is essential — even if that means relieving top leaders from duty in a time of war. Looking at the poll on the [front page](http://www.armytimes.com), the troops appear to agree with this assessment of responsibility. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-torture-of-a-twelve-year-old-girl-time-to-leave/244102.md?page=10)