# The "toxins weaken you" bar trick (or somethin like that) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 31, 2009, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toxins-weaken-you-bar-trick-or-somethin-like-that/515840 "2009-10-31T13:27:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toxins-weaken-you-bar-trick-or-somethin-like-that/515840/21 "2009-11-01T22:32:31Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > It is possible to prove that it’s nonsense using a simple double-blind test. However, as with all these things, the fact that one can prove that it is nonsense won’t stop it enduring and spreading. ‘You can’t rationally argue out what wasn’t rationally argued in’. > > Get your quack therapist to name two substances, one that weakens the body and one that strengthens it. Just by way of example, suppose that the first is rat poison and the second is a sample of the therapist’s own herbal remedies or vitamin supplements or whatever. Find a way to present these so that outwardly, you can’t tell which is which e.g. preparing samples of equal size and weight and wrapping them in opaque containers or cloth bags or aluminum foil, or putting samples of equal weight in small plastic kitchen containers lined with brown paper. Obviously, you would have to agree the protocol with the therapist so that he or she accepts that the wrapping does not interfere with the purpose of the experiment. > > The containers are mixed at random in a process unknown and unseen by either you or the therapist and numbered 1 - 10. One is selected at random and you hold it or touch it or hold it over your heart (according to whichever procedure the therapist normally employs). The therapist uses the ‘arm test’ to determine whether the substance in the container is a good substance or a bad one. This verdict is recorded. Repeat with the remaining nine containers. > > Therapist is allowed as much time as he or she wants to make each determination, and is allowed to change her mind at any time concerning any container. However, all ten verdicts must be recorded before any of the containers are opened. > > When the experiment is over, the containers are opened and the contents of each are compared with the therapist’s verdict. > > The therapist will score no better than guesswork, because it _is_ guesswork. What this shows is that the experiment, the ‘arm test’, only ‘works’ when you know what the outcome is _supposed_ to be. You know, Mythbusters takes suggestions from their viewers for things to look at. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toxins-weaken-you-bar-trick-or-somethin-like-that/515840/22 "2009-11-01T23:42:47Z")
You guys all got it wrong. What you do is, the first time, you let the subject hold his hand palm up. The second time, you let them hold the arm palm down. That’s really all there is to it. You can easily try that on yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toxins-weaken-you-bar-trick-or-somethin-like-that/515840/23 "2009-11-01T23:50:05Z")
My mother wants cites that AK is BS. She’s a non-practicing nurse who’s in to alternate medicine, sometimes _very_ alternate. She’s very reluctant to believe that it’s woowoo. Any good articles to send her? ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toxins-weaken-you-bar-trick-or-somethin-like-that/515840/24 "2009-11-02T00:44:28Z")
In my hometown, there was a dentist (Dr. C) whom my family knew. Dr. C had left general dentistry to specialize in treating temporomandibular joint (TMJ), a disorder of the jaw which is purported by some to cause every illness under the sun (or at least 90% of it, according to Dr. C). One day I just had finished lifting weights at a gym which had an entrance right on the sidewalk. Dr. C walked by, greeted me, and gesturing at my gear and clothing, asked, “Have you had your bite checked?” He answered my quizzical look by saying that he treated lots of athletes for TMJ and they had experienced great increases in performance. He offered to demonstrate. He asked me to hold my arm out to the side, and pressed down on it. He then instructed me to clench my teeth together, and he repeated the experiment. He said, “Yeah, your bite is causing you problems. It was easier to press down the second time”. I was at that time of my life an engineering student, and at my peak of Randian, undiplomatic skepticism. I asked the doctor how much force he had applied each time. He replied that he could press down easier when my teeth were clenched. I repeated my question, and suggested that we go into the gym and repeat the experiement using dumbbells. Dr. C said he didn’t have time for that, and bid me good day. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toxins-weaken-you-bar-trick-or-somethin-like-that/515840/25 "2009-11-02T13:22:12Z")
> [@johnpost](#): > > get a fish scale and hook it on the person’s finger and pull on it. i think 5 lb. is way more than the force of your push. Or better yet, wrap some fabric around their wrist and hook the fish scale to that. Just saying that with a hook around my finger, ouch!, you might be able to get me to lower my arm even the force wasn’t enough to overcome my muscles. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toxins-weaken-you-bar-trick-or-somethin-like-that/515840/26 "2009-11-02T14:09:30Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > My mother wants cites that AK is BS. She’s a non-practicing nurse who’s in to alternate medicine, sometimes _very_ alternate. She’s very reluctant to believe that it’s woowoo. Any good articles to send her? If my experience is anything to go by, you’re wasting your time. ‘You cannot rationally argue out what wasn’t rationally argued in’. You could send her articles, proof, evidence, citations and a signed letter from a deity, it wouldn’t make any difference. She’d either ignore it or look at it and say, ‘Well, that’s all very well, but I still there’s something in it…’. She might even throw in, ‘I prefer to keep an open-mind…’. This is how pre-glued anti-thinking persists. If you really want to waste your time, get her to try the double-blind test outlined earlier in this thread, or find an AK specialist willing to try it. That’s several hours of your life you’ll never get back. Before you embark on this mission to bring knowledge to the bemused, the deluded and the poorly informed, here’s a story to bear in mind. Some time ago a very large-scale, well-conducted trial was organised to investigate the efficacy of homeopathy. The trial was organised and designed with the full co-operation of some expert homeopaths. The end result was that homeopathy was shown to be what it is: wishful thinking and nonsense. The homeopaths replied, ‘You see, that’s why we don’t do double-blind trials. They don’t work.’ You can’t win with these people. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toxins-weaken-you-bar-trick-or-somethin-like-that/515840/27 "2009-11-02T15:13:14Z")
I’d like to at least try first. She asked me to send her an article on controlled studies on AK, and so I’m asking for a good source. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toxins-weaken-you-bar-trick-or-somethin-like-that/515840/28 "2009-11-02T15:41:03Z")
Skeptic’s Dictionary would be a good start. But ask her why she wants written references and reports (which she can ignore, discredit, misinterpret or consider ‘balanced’ by lots of pro-AK literature) when she can try the double-blind test for herself and demonstrate, as often as she wants, as long as she wants, that it only works when you know what the answer is supposed to be. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toxins-weaken-you-bar-trick-or-somethin-like-that/515840/29 "2009-11-02T16:30:17Z")
It’s not just psychologically messing with the test takes head but it’s messing with the head of the person giving the test. They want to say “I pushed the same both times” but in reality they subconciously pushed harder the second time. The easiest way to test this is to have the person giving the test use something other than pushing down manually on their arm. If you had something like a 20# weight and told them to hold their arm out to the side palm up and handed them the weight it would be more consistent. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toxins-weaken-you-bar-trick-or-somethin-like-that/515840/30 "2009-11-02T18:01:42Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > Skeptic’s Dictionary would be a good start. But ask her why she wants written references and reports (which she can ignore, discredit, misinterpret or consider ‘balanced’ by lots of pro-AK literature) when she can try the double-blind test for herself and demonstrate, as often as she wants, as long as she wants, that it only works when you know what the answer is supposed to be. No, no, no. You’remisuderstanding me here. I told her that I read on the internet that it’s all bunk, and unsuprisingly she wants to see that page. I don’t think it would be very helpful to send her to this thread, so I’m just looking for an abstract of one of the debunking studies. Telling her to do self-testing when she’s looking for a web article makes it sound like I’m stalling. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toxins-weaken-you-bar-trick-or-somethin-like-that/515840/31 "2009-11-02T18:32:37Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > I don’t think it would be very helpful to send her to this thread, so I’m just looking for an abstract of one of the debunking studies. > **[Applied Kinesiology: Phony Muscle-Testing for "Allergies" and "Nutrient...](https://quackwatch.org/related/Tests/ak/)** > > Applied kinesiology (AK) is the term most commonly used to identify a pseudoscientific system of muscle-testing and therapy. It was initiated in 1964 by Geo ... ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toxins-weaken-you-bar-trick-or-somethin-like-that/515840/32 "2009-11-02T20:56:22Z")
Thanks, that’s just the thing I’m looking for. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toxins-weaken-you-bar-trick-or-somethin-like-that/515840/33 "2009-11-04T04:20:37Z")
I’d always figured it had to with the fact that your arm was tired from resisting so hard the first time. I’ve seen a similar experiment done with shoe inserts. In this one, it’s the first time that the arm can be pushed down. And the result is that the person is knocked of balance. But when the insert is used (which, as I’ve tried them, actually do support in the sense of holding part of your foot up), the person is not pushed off-balance, even if their arm goes down. Is this the same thing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-toxins-weaken-you-bar-trick-or-somethin-like-that/515840.md?page=1)