# The tree of liberty needs to be watered with the blood of school children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 15, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854 "2018-02-15T02:32:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/281 "2018-02-18T02:50:45Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > [33 Dead, 130 Injured in China Knife-Wielding Spree](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/33-dead-130-injured-china-knife-wielding-spree-n41966) (from 2014, as if that means anything. But you know, it’s the Dope where anything from the past allegedly loses validity. Just ask **Kimstu**.) As much as I loved the responses from others before me, let’s agree with you! Knives are just as bad as guns! So you should have no problem turning in all your guns and keep all the knives you want. If you say they’re interchangeable to distract from the gun discussion, then they have to be interchangeable for the guns that you own as well. Oddly enough, I haven’t heard of anyone making that comparison following through. It’s as if they really don’t think that guns and knifes are the same thing but they say that to make a really poor point in a debate. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/282 "2018-02-18T03:06:34Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > [33 Dead, 130 Injured in China Knife-Wielding Spree](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/33-dead-130-injured-china-knife-wielding-spree-n41966) (from 2014, as if that means anything. But you know, it’s the Dope where anything from the past allegedly loses validity. Just ask **Kimstu**.) > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Where “he” is a group of (at least) five guys. > > CMC fnord! Nice catch! And four of the dead were four of the five attackers. So let’s see: five guys with knives killed 29 people between them. So in a knife attack with an exceptionally high death toll, each knife-wielding assailant killed 6 people. A guy with an AR-15 would just be getting warmed up at that point. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/283 "2018-02-18T03:09:40Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > As I said, guns were everywhere in 1960 but this stuff wasn’t going on then. There are a lot more now and I only have to go back to 2009 to [illustrate this point](http://www.unionleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?avis=UL&date=20151025&category=NEWS07&lopenr=151029397&Ref=AR&source=RSS&template=printart): > [@](#): > > In 2009, the first year of Barack Obama’s presidency, the number of civilian firearms in the U.S. hit 310 million, according to the Congressional Research Service, exceeding the U.S. population for the first time. Gun sales have not slowed since. > > In 2013, the last year of official data from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, there were about 357 million civilian firearms in the U.S. Responding to consumer demand, gun manufacturers have doubled their annual production, from 5.6 million in 2009 to nearly 11 million in 2013. Earlier in the thread someone had to be corrected when they said that other countries with “plenty of guns” didn’t have the same problems. We don’t just have _some_ guns. We may have had them for a long time and other countries may have some too. But trying to make it out like the US doesn’t currently have a metric shit ton more guns now than in previous years and other countries is disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/284 "2018-02-18T03:10:04Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Governments have killed far more than civilians. Shouldn’t we disarm them as well? Speaking of bullshit sophistry. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/285 "2018-02-18T03:41:13Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Speaking of bullshit sophistry. Somehow it reminds me of a FB meme directed at those in favor of stricter gun control laws; it says “Abortion kills 300,000 a year, but you don’t want to ban THAT.” :dubious: So many fallacies at work. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/286 "2018-02-18T04:53:44Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Speaking of bullshit sophistry. So an inaccurate deflection is an argument now? Sad. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/287 "2018-02-18T05:00:12Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Governments have killed far more than civilians. Shouldn’t we disarm them as well? Calm down, Rummel. (Now whine at me for making another reference you don’t get.) ---
**Author:** ![anomalous1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@anomalous1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anomalous1)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/288 "2018-02-18T05:46:37Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Are you people purposely avoiding the point, or is it just reflex? Exactly why I won’t even entertain trying to explain my points to people like Derleth and their hyper inflated sense of intelligence, especially thinking a person wouldn’t know what a Main Battle Tank or Air burst weapons are. Perhaps in his sabbatical from lackluster IT work and programming, he took up reading history and in his infinite wisdom forgot to realize history teaches lessons, a big one is that disarming a populace opens the door to tyranny at worst and upsetting the status quo of those who earned their right in society. Or maybe he feels like a big man online because in his Red State, his opinion doesn’t matter. People like him will reflexively derail others to suit his own delusional fantasy of reality, liked to an Apple commercial. Pay no mind. The progressive argument is a detracting and cyclical one. Never changes. You can’t fix stupid. Just let them waste their energy when so they don’t have enough to pursue their terrible ideation of what America should be, instead of preserving its sanctity. It’s a winning situation for those of us who care about preserving the integrity of the U.S. Watch them spin this to fit their agenda… it’ll be great to see how far they go. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/289 "2018-02-18T05:49:46Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Again, you daft fool, if you had any sense of logical consistency you’d realize you sound retarded. You do realize that several of the mods and one of the former mods don’t particularly care for me? If there was any evidence your illogical assertion were true it would have been acted on. Boy, you sure are protesting really loudly. The mods have two ways of proving that you’re a sock: you admit it (care to admit it?), or you sign in from the same IP. Presumably your IP has changed, so, like OJ, everyone knows you did it, but for now you walk. But seriously, just out of curiosity, what was your prior user name? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/290 "2018-02-18T05:52:11Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > Exactly why I won’t even entertain trying to explain my points to people like Derleth and their hyper inflated sense of intelligence, especially thinking a person wouldn’t know what a Main Battle Tank or Air burst weapons are. Perhaps in his sabbatical from lackluster IT work and programming, he took up reading history and in his infinite wisdom forgot to realize history teaches lessons, a big one is that disarming a populace opens the door to tyranny at worst and upsetting the status quo of those who earned their right in society. Or maybe he feels like a big man online because in his Red State, his opinion doesn’t matter. People like him will reflexively derail others to suit his own delusional fantasy of reality, liked to an Apple commercial. Pay no mind. The progressive argument is a detracting and cyclical one. Never changes. You can’t fix stupid. Just let them waste their energy when so they don’t have enough to pursue their terrible ideation of what America should be, instead of preserving its sanctity. It’s a winning situation for those of us who care about preserving the integrity of the U.S. > > Watch them spin this to fit their agenda… it’ll be great to see how far they go. I understand every part of that except the “Apple commercial”. I hate Apple, and I don’t know what kinds of commercials you’re talking about. (This means the rest of your post is points repeated a thousand times and disproven just as often, BTW.) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/291 "2018-02-18T05:52:39Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > disarming a populace opens the door to tyranny at worst Do you have any examples? (and you should probably read a history book before claiming that Nazi Germany is an example). ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/292 "2018-02-18T10:07:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Governments have killed far more than civilians. Shouldn’t we disarm them as well? > [@octopus](#): > > So an inaccurate deflection is an argument now? Sad. Quite. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/293 "2018-02-18T12:54:49Z")
Somebody should make a music video clip of the school shooting footage and set it to Bruce Springsteens “Born in the USA”. [Like this one.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2Hpo39FivM) That would put, at least, an end to the GOP’s abusing that song against [Springsteens explicit wishes for the GOP’s conventies come next election.](https://www.rollingstone.com/music/lists/stop-using-my-song-34-artists-who-fought-politicians-over-their-music-20150708/bruce-springsteen-vs-ronald-reagan-bob-dole-and-pat-buchanan-20150629) And with any luck, any time that song is on the radio, people will be reminded of how the US treats it’s school shooting massacres. The Boss [already did it for one shooting.](https://youtu.be/nghqjBwZTiE) ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/294 "2018-02-18T13:00:56Z")
Like [the band Live’s song “Overcome”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpCa7Ay596M) became the soundtrack for 9/11, expressing how every one felt. ( Live donated the profits of the song to charity, btw.) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/295 "2018-02-18T13:42:15Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You do realize that several of the mods and one of the former mods don’t particularly care for me? Hats off to the moderators! ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/296 "2018-02-18T13:55:31Z")
The European perspective: gun ownership is a privilege, not a right. You don’t give out driving licenses to someone who cannot drive (except in certain Third World countries where corruption is a way of life) but in the wonderful USA just about anyone who has a pulse can buy a gun. Next point from Europe: it is rare to get a permit for anything other than target rifles and pistols, hunting rifles and shotguns. Why does the USA permit pump guns and repeaters? They are mankillers, not hunting weapons. I’m sure the NRA has an answer for this, it always has. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/297 "2018-02-18T14:04:31Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > The second amendment will never be repealed. It will never happen as much as some wish it. It is one of the founding principles that differentiates the U.S. from so many other countries. It is in essence a right to protect against tyranny. It is of course really F\*\*cked up that someone would do what they did with them, but if there are other means, and no firearms, they will be used. > … > Blame the person, not the tool. Guns are not inherently evil, it is only in that hands of those that are when they become the problem. A “right to protect against tyranny”, indeed. Has it worked? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/298 "2018-02-18T14:07:32Z")
The thing is, it’s right there in the U.S. constitution. The right to bear arms, so it’s really difficult to change, and really easy to abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/299 "2018-02-18T14:13:03Z")
Someone somewhere threw in all the old chestnut about Hitler being able to take over Germany because there were no guns in private ownership. Firstly, I’ll bet serious money that the majority of guns in legal private ownership belonged to more or less right-wing types who were pretty much pro-Hitler anyway. But Germany had been disarmed after WW1 - it was again after WW2 for a while. Private citizens fighting tyranny? Take a look at the success of the resistance movements in Nazi-occupied Europe, and these people were able to get (some) military weapons. Urban guerilla warfare as practiced by the likes of the IRA works up to a point, but in general a military of paramilitary force just overruns the amateurs and the loners. Short answer to stopping Hitler back then: action from other countries. But he was democratically elected (yea, really), so that made it harder to storm in and demand a replacement, and he was also rabidly anti-communist, which went down well with his neighbors. By the time it was obvious that he was dangerous the Western democracies found they did not have the military means to stop him, having run down their respective militaries. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/300 "2018-02-18T15:17:34Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Governments have killed far more than civilians. Shouldn’t we disarm them as well? Ideally, yes. However there are various factors that make that impossible, whereas we have a number of examples of populations being disarmed successfully. Or of common-sense gun regulation being implemented. Also of course we could enumerate the ways that this is a false analogy, but I would feel stupid even needing to type it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854.md?page=16)