# The tree of liberty needs to be watered with the blood of school children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 15, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854 "2018-02-15T02:32:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/21 "2018-02-15T04:03:19Z")
Why bother? Everyone will cry and wring their hands for four or five days, then it will drop out of the spotlight thanks in no small part to the worthless, rotten gun filth including the worthless, rotten gun filth on this very Board. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/22 "2018-02-15T04:07:22Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Guns are the easy answer, a cop-out. There are other countries with lots of guns, and this doesn’t happen. The truth is something far worse: our culture is deeply fucked up, and this is one way it manifests. We’re atomized, violent, vengeful, and utterly disconnected from each other and from any sense of community. > > Fuck if I know how to fix it. Nope. [Read through this article, and the stats therein.](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts) Overwhelming evidence that the more guns, the more gun deaths. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/23 "2018-02-15T04:12:06Z")
Amazing how fast and how hard the pro-gun groups have flown into action with anti-democrat, anti-antifas, pro-gun memes and posts. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/24 "2018-02-15T04:15:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Since Americans, unlike other peoples, have the right to own guns, you’re necessarily going to be limited in how far you can go to limit access. For the time being. You are right that the enshrining of a particular kind of weapons ownership as a fundamental constitutional right is the root of the problem, and the problem will not really be successfully addressed until we change that. And that will take a while. Once we fix that issue, we could still have quite a few people legally owning quite a few guns without it causing severe social problems. As is the case in many other countries where gun ownership isn’t considered a fundamental right. It’s the perceptual distortion of a particular kind of weapons ownership into some imagined essential manifestation of patriotic liberty that is at the heart of our society’s fuckedupness on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/25 "2018-02-15T04:25:45Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I don’t even think there’s something wrong with our culture. We’re a nation of 300 million people and a few of us are “special” types who want notoriety. > > Mass shootings making headlines aside, gun crime keeps on dropping. we are making progress, and we’re doing it while liberalizing our gun laws. That just means we’re making progress in one area but not another. It’s not that mass shootings now make headlines. Its that they are happening more and more, with more people being killed. That is the current problem we are discussing. The question is what we can do about it. As you indicate, the existence of people who want to do these sorts of things seems to be a constant. So what else can we do? Should it not be to keep guns out of the hands of people who want to do it, taking away their ability? Sure, going after the illegal guns would be a great, and might help. But how do you actually do that? How do you verify that people aren’t the legal owners of certain guns? You need gun registration. You need a right to be able to stop and check a gun and see if it is registered. You may need laws about securing a gun. Maybe even laws that would make you also (partially) guilty of what the gun user did with your gun without securing it. You may need to get rid of concealed carry, so that police can see your gun so they can check it, and get you in trouble if one is hidden on you. You’d need proper licensing on all guns, with background checks to make sure they can legally own a gun. You’d need inspections to make sure everything is on the up and up. And all of this is the stuff that the NRA-types fight against. They defund some of the latter programs. They treat gun registration as “gun grabbing.” They see concealed carry as a right, and fight background checks all the time. But it’s what is necessary to try and prevent just illegal gun ownership. But, even that isn’t the whole problem, now is it? How often do the shooters legally own their guns? Didn’t the Vegas shooter own his own guns, for instance? How do we keep guns out of their hands? Some sort of psych evaluation seems the best idea to me. But that also means some people may not pass, and then you get into the whole NRA gun rights crowd again. You’re taking away their guns! I mean, I guess we could also limit where you can carry a gun, to make it where you can stop someone with a gun before they arrive somewhere where they can cause a mass shooting. But that needs tons of resources, too, and still falls afoul of the NRA pro-gun types. Point is, the only way to do this seems to be to change this whole “gun rights” paradigm. I’m not saying get rid of the Second Amendment. I’m not saying to take away the general citizen’s right to “bare arms.” But to have reasonable ways to deal with guns, changing the gun rights culture seems the only solution. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/26 "2018-02-15T04:25:49Z")
Can’t wait to hear what President Shithead has to say about this. Anything yet? Or just crickets from the White House? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/27 "2018-02-15T04:29:41Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Point is, the only way to do this seems to be to change this whole “gun rights” paradigm. I’m not saying get rid of the Second Amendment. I am. And I don’t even dislike guns or want to stop most law-abiding people from being able to own them. But as you note, the root of the problem is ultimately our nation’s gun rights culture. And the root of gun rights culture is the placement of gun ownership in the category of fundamental rights. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/28 "2018-02-15T06:44:00Z")
[‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens](https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1820163660) ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/29 "2018-02-15T06:53:39Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > “Arm the teachers. Or at least the administrative staff.” No. Hire real live cops. They are trained, teachers aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/30 "2018-02-15T07:02:36Z")
When the police captured the shooter, were they careful not to spill his magazines or harm his gun? ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/31 "2018-02-15T07:41:09Z")
Pretty sure all the gun owning Patriots need those guns to defend the country when the Russians invade. Or when the government ignores the law of the land. No doubt they will be acting soon. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/32 "2018-02-15T07:44:46Z")
Why can’t we create a new professional, an armed individual trained by the FBI or LEO. His/Her job would be to be on staff at all schools to protect and provide training. And make changes in protocol at the school. It couldn’t hurt. And this cat, today knew the school and how to get in, that seems like a problem to me. The school my kids went to was on lockdown as soon as the bell rang everyday. You didnt get in there unless you checked in and had ID. There are still holes in that system, there are way too many doors, for one thing. An there are times during the day some kids have the need to go out and crossover to a gym or other. Because I am a volunteer of some standing I have keys to several doors at the school, I guard them jealously. I am not the only one with keys that is not on staff, I don’t pretend they are as careful, I hope they are. There must be some way to change this story. We have some smart people in this country, why isn’t someone actively working on rhis? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/33 "2018-02-15T07:48:42Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Guns are the easy answer, a cop-out. There are other countries with lots of guns, and this doesn’t happen. The truth is something far worse: our culture is deeply fucked up, and this is one way it manifests. We’re atomized, violent, vengeful, and utterly disconnected from each other and from any sense of community. I’m not really sure this is a sound argument. If you think about it, what you’re saying basically amounts to: guns in the hands of the non-psychopaths who populate other countries don’t cause a problem, so there’s no reason to take the guns away from we psychopaths. Ok, I know what you’re really saying is – let’s fundamentally improve our society. But it doesn’t follow that it might not be a very good idea to take the guns out of that society too. I mean, to some extent the unwillingness to think it’s a good idea to _try_ that is a manifestation of how screwed up things are. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/34 "2018-02-15T07:56:13Z")
At least now (ever since Sandy Hook) the parents will have the consolation of knowing that their children’s sacrifices were completely in vain and that nothing will change. I would not want them to be suffering under the illusion of false hope or wasting their time and energy campaigning for sensible gun laws. Mass murder is legal in the United States and no amount of dead kids will change that. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/35 "2018-02-15T09:33:10Z")
There’s only so much you can warn people. There have been 18 school shooting since January so surely all school pupils and parents must be fully aware that being shot is part of the of educational contract? The stats show this clearly. They knew the risks when they walked through the gates and if they simply can’t be bothered to conceal a weapon themselves then they only have themselves to blame when Jordan in the 11th grade flips out. When you have a couple of thousand hormonal, capricious, unpredictable teenagers lumped together it surely only makes sense to ensure that they all have easy access to deadly weapons, how will they protect themselves otherwise? Better still if they are all allowed to bring them to school, more guns make for a polite and safe campus surely? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/36 "2018-02-15T09:53:44Z")
As seen on Twitter, by the guy who wrote [the Onion’s most tragically timeless article](https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1823016659?utm_content=Main&utm_campaign=SF&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=SocialMarketing); > [@Jason Roeder](#): > > When I wrote this headline, I had no idea it would be applied to the high school a mile from my house. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/37 "2018-02-15T09:54:26Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > There’s only so much you can warn people. There have been 18 school shooting since January… I… what? Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/38 "2018-02-15T10:41:38Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > I… what? Seriously? apparently yes, I had to double check that to quite take it in myself. [here’s one source](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/15/new-normal-school-shooting-every-60-hours-us-accepts-grim-reality/) ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/39 "2018-02-15T11:01:09Z")
Jesus. We’re in week seven. That’s almost 3 per week. It more than weekly, its every other workday! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/40 "2018-02-15T11:32:56Z")
To be fair, the rate of school shootings does drop off sharply during the summer months. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854.md?page=3)