# The tree of liberty needs to be watered with the blood of school children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 15, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854 "2018-02-15T02:32:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/381 "2018-02-19T23:48:47Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Sounds like we’re in general agreement, then, modulo of course the specifics of ‘much tighter’ gun control. > > As you may have noticed, in these threads I’ve been saying that weapons of mass slaughter - weapons that are capable of killing a shitload of people in a hurry - have no place in civilian life. They should be banned. Confiscated and destroyed. > > Once the law spells out which guns are so categorized, there should be a grace period of a year or two for turning them in, after which possession of such weapons would be a felony. > > There should be mandatory registration for legal guns. > > Aside from hunting, guns don’t belong out in public. Open carry should be outlawed, aside from the use of hunting rifles in designated hunting areas in season. And that would include on your own property, within sight of your neighbor’s property or of the street: you don’t get to wave your gun around outside where other people can see it. If you’ve got a gun to protect you and yours against the boogeyman, keep it inside where it belongs. > > Concealed carry should require a permit, to be issued only upon showing of a clear need. > > There’s my ‘tight gun control.’ I’d be interested in your thoughts. Yeah, I wouldn’t go that far as I feel self defense, a slight hedge against government over reach, sport, etc are all legitimate. However, there is a huge issue with the reach and rapidity of modern firearms. Especially, since the deterrent of punishment doesn’t work with the 0.000x% that are willing to die just to inflict pain on society. If government actually had a better track record perhaps a government monopoly on firearms would be the solution. But government doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/382 "2018-02-20T00:07:40Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nobody here but you is attempting any “exaggeration” or “revisionism” of historical facts. When we point out that murder and burglary rates now are about the same as they were in 1960, that’s historical fact. When we note that domestic violence and racial discrimination were far more normalized in the 1950s than they are now, that’s historical fact. Your personal reminiscences about a small number of your own female relatives don’t change those facts. So nice of you to argue points I never made. I’ve never denied that domestic violence occurred back then (nor, as you appear to believe, that it doesn’t go on now) and I’ve never said that racial discrimination didn’t exist then. However those issues and other of concern to a civilized society could and should have been addressed in more adult, common-sensical and ultimately more effective and less damaging ways than having been tacked on to the counterculture revolution which was mostly about fostering tenets of liberal permissiveness and accompanied by wholesale disregard for consequence. As far as current violent crime and murder rates, I’m afraid you’re wrong there too (too bad I can’t say this is a rarity). Many times I’ve commented on the fact that now, after fifty years, the violent crime rate has managed to settle back down to levels near what they were prior to the counterculture revolution. But the fact is that crime of all kinds skyrocketed in the immediate wake of it, and the fact that it’s gone back down recently is only scant consolation to those victimized by it at the time. The lower rates also call into question the reasons for them, which I’ve also theorized about before on this board and which include harsher penalties, no federal parole, and the citizenry in general having taken up arms at unprecedented levels to protect themselves. So much so, in fact, that recently we’ve even had several states enact open and/or concealed carry laws so that people can protect themselves when out in public as well as at home. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/383 "2018-02-20T00:20:46Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Recent? Try 2700 years old, and cooked up by either the Lord God, or the prophet Isaiah, depending on whether one believes that the OT prophets were, in fact, prophets. > > Because today’s reading is from the book of Isaiah, chapter 1, verses 11 through 17: > “If you could do something about this slaughter but you don’t, then fuck your thoughts and prayers” is totally within the spirit of this passage. Uhhh, they don’t follow that part. They only follow the cherry picked parts they like. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/384 "2018-02-20T00:26:07Z")
Well, at least you recognize your efforts are just theorizing. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/385 "2018-02-20T00:37:57Z")
At least one White House official said the tragedy gave the White House staff just the break they needed. … Distraction fro the usual shit about Russia,. treason, collaboration and corruption From the Washington Post: - “For everyone, it was a distraction or a reprieve,” said one White House official, speaking anonymously to reflect internal conversations. “A lot of people here felt like it was a reprieve from seven or eight days of just getting pummeled.” The official likened the brief political calm to the aftermath of the October 2017 gun massacre in Las Vegas that left 58 dead and hundreds more injured. That tragedy united White House aides and the country in their shared mourning for the victims and their families. “But as we all know, sadly, when the coverage dies down a little bit, we’ll be back through the chaos,” the official said.\* As in, it’s great these kids got killed, to take some heat off of us. Fuck them all. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/386 "2018-02-20T01:07:51Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > When we point out that murder and burglary rates now are about the same as they were in 1960, that’s historical fact. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > As far as current violent crime and murder rates, I’m afraid you’re wrong there too […] Many times I’ve commented on the fact that now, after fifty years, the violent crime rate has managed to settle back down to levels near what they were prior to the counterculture revolution. 😕 Dude, in practically the same breath there you assert that my (factually correct) statement is wrong **and then go on to assert almost the very same statement yourself**. That is some record-level reading incomprehension on your part. Did you mistakenly think I was trying to claim that murder/crime rates hadn’t risen (and subsequently fallen) **between** 1960 and nowadays? I wasn’t, and I didn’t say anything like it. I would complain about your dishonestly misrepresenting my remarks, except I think the truth is that you’re not deliberately lying about them: you just get so riled up and sputtery and harrumphy that you can’t properly process the syntax to understand what they’re saying. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > I’ve never denied that domestic violence occurred back then […] and I’ve never said that racial discrimination didn’t exist then. But when other people point such things out, you try to spin it as “exaggeration” and “revisionism”: > [@Starving Artist](#): > > Most of what people believe about that time are either exaggerations of genuine ills or history revisionism You have not so far provided a single shred of actual evidence that anything anybody has said here about aspects of pre-1960s culture is either “exaggerated” or “revisionist”. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > However those issues and other of concern to a civilized society could and should have been addressed in more adult, common-sensical and ultimately more effective and less damaging ways I completely concur that it’s a great pity that endemic racism and sexism in American society weren’t addressed earlier and in more thoroughly effective ways, since we’ve still got way too much of them. However, the fault for not fixing the problems earlier lies not with 1960s counterculture, but with the generations that preceded it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/387 "2018-02-20T01:13:32Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Now, having said that, it so happens that ‘thoughts and prayers’ are often quite comforting to people in times of stress or loss. Doctor: I’m sorry. You have cancer. Patient: Oh my god! Doctor: Don’t worry. We have ways to treat it. Patient: Thank goodness! What will it involve, surgery? Chemotherapy? Doctor: All of those things may work, but we’re going to stick to thoughts and prayers. Patient: Wat? Doctor: Yes, even though we have an ability to treat your cancer that has worked with other patients, we choose to abstain from any of those things. Instead, we will keep you in our thoughts and prayers Patient: That’s bullshit! Doctor: Not sure what you mean! **Starving Artist** said that this would be quite comforting. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/388 "2018-02-20T01:44:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Putting a self-serving spin on ‘recent’ I see. Well, uh, sweetheart, Columbine and our other school shootings have been going on much longer than a year. Jesus. You’re even more stupid than I thought. **Something enough of a joke to be used as the title of a television show must have been a joke long before that.** > [@](#): > > and am almost always thought by people who know me personally to be much younger than I am. I’m bigoted all right, but mostly against political nutjobbery, and stupid is a relative term. Around here it’s best defined as ‘conservative’, and I accept the accolade proudly. No, by stupid, I mean you are dull witted. Slow. Not smart. You have a low IQ. You know who’s much, much smarter than you? Emma Gonzalez. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/389 "2018-02-20T01:48:05Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > 😕 Dude, in practically the same breath there you assert that my (factually correct) statement is wrong **and then go on to assert almost the very same statement yourself**. That is some record-level reading incomprehension on your part. > > Did you mistakenly think I was trying to claim that murder/crime rates hadn’t risen (and subsequently fallen) **between** 1960 and nowadays? I wasn’t, and I didn’t say anything like it. It was implicit in your statement. Otherwise why bring it up? You certainly wouldn’t be doing your side any favor by admitting what I’ve already stated which is that they skyrocketed starting with the counterculture revolution and have only recently approached pre counterculture levels. > [@Kimstu](#): > > I would complain about your dishonestly misrepresenting my remarks, except I think the truth is that you’re not deliberately lying about them: you just get so riled up and sputtery and harrumphy that you can’t properly process the syntax to understand what they’re saying. Thanks for the benefit of doubt, but it’s actually been your posts of lately that have me wondering if you’re not the one spinning out of control. ('Yeah, well Maxine Waters may have said she was all about socialism and wanting the government to take over and run the country’s oil companies, but that doesn’t prove she’s a socialist.) > [@Kimstu](#): > > But when other people point such things out, you try to spin it as “exaggeration” and “revisionism”: > > You have not so far provided a single shred of actual evidence that anything anybody has said here about aspects of pre-1960s culture is either “exaggerated” or “revisionist”. > I completely concur that it’s a great pity that endemic racism and sexism in American society weren’t addressed earlier and in more thoroughly effective ways, since we’ve still got way too much of them. However, the fault for not fixing the problems earlier lies not with 1960s counterculture, but with the generations that preceded it. Well, in the first place these problems haven’t been “fixed” by a long shot. If anything, they’ve been improved, but then they’d been improved during the fifty years leading up to the counterculture revolution too and there’s no reason to think they wouldn’t have continued on that same trajectory and without the tremendous downsides that the kneejerk liberal approach has shackled us with. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/390 "2018-02-20T01:56:23Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Jesus. You’re even more stupid than I thought. **Something enough of a joke to be used as the title of a television show must have been a joke long before that.** Have you seen my analogy about how posters like you operate? It’s the one where I posit a claim that school bombings never occurred in 1960 but then some moron comes charging in with a cite that says someone set off a cherry bomb in a classroom in 1954 and acts like he proved me wrong. Well, right now you’re being that moron. Simply titling a cartoon episode something does not mean it’s become anything meaningful and widespread among the populace. You’re grasping at straws and being ridiculous. I’m beginning to suspect that you’ve fallen victim to Trump Derangement Syndrome like so many of the other posters around here. > [@RickJay](#): > > No, by stupid, I mean you are dull witted. Slow. Not smart. You have a low IQ. > > You know who’s much, much smarter than you? Emma Gonzalez. Well now, that’s just plain stupid. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/391 "2018-02-20T02:13:35Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Have you seen my analogy about how posters like you operate? It’s the one where I posit a claim that school bombings never occurred in 1960 but then some moron comes charging in with a cite that says someone set off a cherry bomb in a classroom in 1954 and acts like he proved me wrong. Except that that “analogy”, like most of your unsupported speculative what-iffery, doesn’t describe anything that actually happened. Yes, when a 2017 cartoon episode about gun violence is titled “Thoughts and Prayers”, that is an allusion to the well-known concept of “thoughts and prayers” rhetoric as an empty gesture in the face of gun violence. As I pointed out earlier, back in 2015 the Daily News was already mocking quoted “thoughts and prayers” rhetoric from politicians about the San Bernardino shootings, with the headline “God Isn’t Fixing This”. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/392 "2018-02-20T02:17:45Z")
Here’s [another 2015 slam against the empty pieties of “thoughts and prayers” rhetoric:](https://mic.com/articles/129597/sandy-hook-senator-just-summed-up-the-reality-of-sending-thoughts-and-prayers#.VtX4fmM9H) > [@](#): > > Connecticut Sen. Chris Murphy tweeted a powerful message to those who lazily offer “thoughts and prayers” to victims of the San Bernardino shooting. > > > [@Chris Murphy](#): > > > > Your “thoughts” should be about steps to take to stop this carnage. Your “prayers” should be for forgiveness if you do nothing - again. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/393 "2018-02-20T02:42:32Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Except that that “analogy”, like most of your unsupported speculative what-iffery, doesn’t describe anything that actually happened. Well of course it didn’t actually happen! :smack: It was a simile used to illustrate a point. Good grief! ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/394 "2018-02-20T02:48:55Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It was a simile used to illustrate a point. A “point” based on fanciful complaints. Nothing like what you’re claiming to “illustrate” actually happened. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/395 "2018-02-20T03:19:09Z")
It happens here all the time. I mean, I realize you guys are nose-blind to your own chicanery, but trust me, it does. (I’ll save you a little time and announce that cites will not be provided.) ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/396 "2018-02-20T03:44:15Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Doctor: Yes, even though we have an ability to treat your cancer that has worked with other patients, we choose to abstain from any of those things. Instead, we will keep you in our thoughts and prayers > Patient: That’s bullshit! > Doctor: Not sure what you mean! **Starving Artist** said that this would be quite comforting. How dare that patient be so negative about thoughts and prayers! Clearly lefties have brainwashed him with one of their talking points. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/397 "2018-02-20T04:32:13Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It was implicit in your statement. Otherwise why bring it up? You certainly wouldn’t be doing your side any favor by admitting what I’ve already stated which is that they skyrocketed starting with the counterculture revolution and have only recently approached pre counterculture levels. And if we were discussing violent crime in the early Seventies, you’d have a point. But we’re not, and you don’t. > [@](#): > > Well, in the first place these problems haven’t been “fixed” by a long shot. If anything, they’ve been improved, but then they’d been improved during the fifty years leading up to the counterculture revolution too and there’s no reason to think they wouldn’t have continued on that same trajectory and without the tremendous downsides that the kneejerk liberal approach has shackled us with. No shit they haven’t been fixed. Children die, and all you have to give is “thoughts and prayers” and horrendous bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/398 "2018-02-20T04:50:34Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Born in '48 (and no, 69 is not that old) The age to retire with full benefits from Social Security is 66. Average lifespan in America is 78. Sorry, but when your age is located between retired and dead, you’re old. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/399 "2018-02-20T05:00:08Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Are you people purposely avoiding the point, or is it just reflex? @ **Starving Artist** — May I apologize sincerely on behalf of myself and other liberal Dopers? We’re wasting the opportunity to learn from you. I have so many questions I’d like to ask. I’ll just start with one: Is it true that the FBI is responsible for the Florida shooting? It could have prevented the massacre if it weren’t wasting so much of its resources on its Fake Russian-meddling investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854/400 "2018-02-20T06:47:01Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > As far as current violent crime and murder rates, I’m afraid you’re wrong there too (too bad I can’t say this is a rarity). Many times I’ve commented on the fact that now, after fifty years, the violent crime rate has managed to settle back down to levels near what they were prior to the counterculture revolution. But the fact is that crime of all kinds skyrocketed in the immediate wake of it, and the fact that it’s gone back down recently is only scant consolation to those victimized by it at the time. The lower rates also call into question the reasons for them, which I’ve also theorized about before on this board and which include harsher penalties, no federal parole, and the citizenry in general having taken up arms at unprecedented levels to protect themselves. So much so, in fact, that recently we’ve even had several states enact open and/or concealed carry laws so that people can protect themselves when out in public as well as at home. Yeah, too bad you haven’t shown any proof other than the “many times you’ve commented”. Fuck off you troglodyte. (And for what it’s worth, I DO know a woman who was abused in the 50s – my aunt. Fuck off) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-tree-of-liberty-needs-to-be-watered-with-the-blood-of-school-children/808854.md?page=21)